4th Edition and the Forgotten Realms

Ix'Chimalxochitzin · Post by **Ix'Chimalxochitzin** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 6:40 pm

More theories.

My character, a follower of Lolth, is good aligned. Her reasoning behind this is as follows:

She believes that a goddess does not shape her followers. Rather, the followers that indirectly grant the goddess they worship her power shape her through the things they pray for. If they pray for the death of their enemies, then said goddess would start to lean more towards violence. If the followers believe spiders to be holy, chances are it'll be one of the goddess' forms if the number of her followers believing it is large enough. Worship is power in those realms, so such a (gradual) shaping could very well be possible.

On to Lolth, or more specifically, Araushnee. Back when she was still considered true neutral (as the title goddess of fate implies), she was given reign over the (then) Dark Elves by Corellan's decree, who, as we know now, were deeply involved into demonology.

It even makes sense for them to worship Araushnee, too. If you were involved with summoning -- and subsequently dealing with -- demons that could [i:1bkiwz84]and would[/i:1bkiwz84] fry your a$$ like a cheap side of bacon', wouldn't [i:1bkiwz84]you[/i:1bkiwz84] send a prayer or two to the Weaver of Fate before starting the incantations? I know i would. From that point of view, it seems only logical that she'd be the main Dark Elven deity, and no more than natural for Corellan to appoint them to her as a (sub)race, like Aerdrie had the Avariel elves for being the deity of Air, Weather and Birds.

Now, what if this aspect of the Dark Elves 'infected' Araushnee, causing her to gradually shift to chaotic evil over the course of decades, or even centuries? In comparison, think of it much like how someone can get involved into crime by having the wrong friends. The Dark Elves, later known as the Drow, would be indirectly responsable for the fall of Araushnee to become Lolth, the leader of the Dark Seldarine.

Now, the interesting part is when i look at what happened when Eilistraee took over Vhaeraun's portofolio, gaining the followers of both. As a result, both religious groups are shifting towards each other, it being confirmed that 'Eilistraeen clerics becoming more ruthless in nature, while the Vhaeraunites become kinder.', as well as a growing sect believing in the 'Masked Lady'. Straight from the Wiki on Vhaeraun.

Now, keeping my previous post in mind, what [i:1bkiwz84]if[/i:1bkiwz84] Eilistraee defeats Lolth? Every Drow would follow Eilistraee then for the sole reason of there existing little to no alternatives, and i can't see Eilistraee commiting genocide on Lolth's evil followers, estimated at about 60-75% of all Drow. Because a large portion of her new followers would be evil aligned, i can see an alignment shift happening there as well from the sheer influx of 'evil' prayers to her due to the absorbing of portofolios. As such, Drizzt would not be able to recognise Eilistraeen beliefs as he knows them a hundred years from now.

Again, this is pure speculation, and the reason i had my character think along these lines is because she is still young, and can therefore be wrong. But i believe it makes sense considering the evidence Eilistraee and Vhaeraun gives us, and such is the way my character believes in that part of Lolth that was (is?) good, and trying to enhance that aspect of her by putting her faith in it as one of her priestesses.

As always, if i'm wrong, feel free to correct me ^^;

Arathen · Post by **Arathen** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 10:12 am

It's a good theory, though as for the dark elven prayers infecting Araushnee, I don't think that's the case. In the FR world, Araushee's fall occurred about...-30,000 DR. The Ssri`Tel`Quessir (or, I should say, the Ilythiiri, since the dark elves of Miyeritar didn't turn evil like their Ilythiiri cousins.) didn't start delving into dark magics until way, way later, somewhere in the -12,000 to -10,900 range. Lolth was even the one who seduced them toward that, with the help of a Balor that she had drawn into her service.

Argoth · Post by **Argoth** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 11:13 am

The theory is very nice and logical. I think in general it may be true. But in the case of Lolth, it may not, simply because the time reference stated by Arathen. Thanks for sharing it though. It's a very good theory.

Ix'Chimalxochitzin · Post by **Ix'Chimalxochitzin** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 3:24 pm

*nods*

Thanks for the heads-up and compliment, like i said i'm not [i:1bkmsfbn]that[/i:1bkmsfbn] familiar with FR lore

.

Still, it'd not affect my character's beliefs much though. She'd still try to do what she's doing now, only the reasoning behind it is minimally different. Not much is known about the Dark Elves, Lolth seducing them to demonology would simply be ignorance on her part, and unless she meets a sage with lore stats comparable to Elminster i can't see that change anytime soon

Morfilmar_Desh · Post by **Morfilmar_Desh** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:42 pm

I like your theories too Ix.

Though I'm very confused by all these changes and stuff coming...

I'm not even that deeply emerged in the lore of 3.5 to be honest.

But when is 4.0 said to be made official? Anyone know yet?

Sancha · Post by **Sancha** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:42 pm

[quote="Arathen":1w7pj3cp]It's a good theory, though as for the dark elven prayers infecting Araushnee, I don't think that's the case. In the FR world, Araushee's fall occurred about...-30,000 DR. The Ssri`Tel`Quessir (or, I should say, the Ilythiiri, since the dark elves of Miyeritar didn't turn evil like their Ilythiiri cousins.) didn't start delving into dark magics until way, way later, somewhere in the -12,000 to -10,900 range. Lolth was even the one who seduced them toward that, with the help of a Balor that she had drawn into her service.[/quote:1w7pj3cp]

Very good points. While the dark elves of Miyeritar didn't turn to evil and start worshipping Lolth and Ghaunadar, they WERE still cursed as Drow during the Descent-- most people (and most D&D sourcebooks) just lump them together. Refreshing to see someone who knows the difference, and the real history.

Personally, I think any blame on the Ssri'Tel'Quessir for the Dark Disaster is pure high elven propaganda. It was the Aryvandaar who did that, not the people of Miyeritar.

I have to agree though, it was Lolth that influenced the Ilythiiri, not the other way around. She was already tanar'ri by that point. I'm not sure if the first elves had arrived on Toril yet by then (that was also around 30,000 years ago) Iirc, the first time Lolth came to the realms, in order to seduce Malar into her Anti-Seldarine, there were no elves there yet. It was on later return visits during the Flowering that she discovered the world crawling with elves, and her son and daughter gaining influence over the Ssri-Tel-Quessir. That simply would not do, and for the second time, Eilistraee played right into her mother's hands (Though again, unknowingly. I can't really hold her at fault the way Vhaeraun does ;P )

It's definitely an interesting theory for your character to hold, Ix, but as with so many other 'theories' and 'histories' written by both the Drow and Gold Elves, it isn't true. But that doesn't mean your character can't believe it.

Gods certainly can be influenced by their worshippers (There is a few cases of such having happened in the realms, mostly around the Time of Troubles) but not to that extent. Usually, it's the other way around, with the gods influencing their mortal worshippers.

@Morfilmar --> The 3.5 edition (and 3.0 for that matter) don't really have any lore to immerse yourself in. It's all just text pulled from the 2nd edition sourcebooks and drastically editted down to leave out any of the important details.

There are a few instances where their editting involved changing little things, but mostly it's all straight out of 2nd Ed, editted to make it fit into a smaller book by leaving out the detail.

Arathen · Post by **Arathen** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 5:54 pm

Heh, I have to thank the Lost Empires of Faerun book for enlightening me about the Ssri`Tel`Quessir. It's a shame they were all cursed, and not just the Ilythiiri. But, apparently the spell that cursed them wasn't as focused as the casters had intended *laughs*
I'm not sure what gods the original dark elves worshiped, really...likely the main Seldarine like most elves, as I doubt they had much dealing with the Dark Seldarine until Lolth got her claws in the Ilythiiri.

Morfilmar_Desh · Post by **Morfilmar_Desh** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:47 pm

I see!

Thanks Sancha

Sancha · Post by **Sancha** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 2:03 am

[quote="Arathen":1nto8etq]Heh, I have to thank the Lost Empires of Faerun book for enlightening me about the Ssri`Tel`Quessir. It's a shame they were all cursed, and not just the Ilythiiri. But, apparently the spell that cursed them wasn't as focused as the casters had intended *laughs*
I'm not sure what gods the original dark elves worshiped, really...likely the main Seldarine like most elves, as I doubt they had much dealing with the Dark Seldarine until Lolth got her claws in the Ilythiiri.[/quote:1nto8etq]

Hmmm, I don't have a copy of Lost Empires yet. Didn't know it had anything interesting in it. Cool.

Yes, the spell that cursed them wasn't directly focused (It wasn't Correllon and the other gods that 'cast' the spell, it was a myriad of elves, but wasn't described as any sort of high magic or similar ritual, which would have lead caster to provide focus and direction).
A great shame, definitely. My character has recently devoted her life to attempting to right that wrong (Heh, I wish her good luck there lol)

The original dark elves of Toril were said to mainly worship Vhaeraun. In Miyeritar, both he and Eilistraee were worshipped (as well, I expect, as some of the Seldarine gods, since a large part of the population were Sy-Tel-Quessir, but I've never seen a sourcebook say they did so. But it stands to reason). Miyeritar was said to be the greatest elven kingdom of all, and the pinnacle of both magical and artistic achievement-- a nation known for the greatest of ancient elven musical and artistic achievements clearly had more than just token guidance from Eilistraee and the Seldarine.

In the south, Vhaeraun's attempt to become the sole god of the Illythiri was thwarted by his sister (That's the reason Vhaeraun has a grudge against her), which allowed Lolth and Ghaunadaur to eventually pull many of them away from Vhaeraun and under their evil sway when the second Crown War broke out.

Arathen · Post by **Arathen** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:07 am

hmm...was this at a point before Vhaeraun was entirely evil? Or am I misunderstanding something about him? Because it seems odd that they'd worship both Vhaeraun and Eilistraee if he was anything like he was, by my understanding, at the point when his sister slew him and absorbed his portfolio. I'd also like to know where you're getting this info, mostly to sate my own curiosity.

Argoth · Post by **Argoth** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:26 pm

Wait, where does Ghaunadaur go? I've read that before Lolth, most of the drow worshiped the G-blob. Was he and Vhaeraun at a point equally important? Could you state a time reference, who was the first worshiped deity and so on?

Arathen · Post by **Arathen** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:30 pm

Ghuanadaur was the first deity of the Dark Seldarine that the Ilythiiri worshipped when they started turning toward evil. First the blob-god, then those that didn't follow him were seduced by Lolth, all around the same time period...a few hundred years between, I think. Those of Miyeritar never actually fell prey to Ghuanadaur and Lolth

Vendrin · Post by **Vendrin** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 2:17 am

Also, that was before Ghaunadaur was so stupid enough to remove the intelligence of all his ooze worshipers, causing him to loose a lot of worshipers and power.

Sancha · Post by **Sancha** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:39 pm

[quote="Arathen":2ufemb8m]hmm...was this at a point before Vhaeraun was entirely evil? Or am I misunderstanding something about him? Because it seems odd that they'd worship both Vhaeraun and Eilistraee if he was anything like he was, by my understanding, at the point when his sister slew him and absorbed his portfolio. I'd also like to know where you're getting this info, mostly to sate my own curiosity.[/quote:2ufemb8m]

Well, this was probably about 20,000 years before the point in time that Vhaeraun was slain by Eilistraee...

Sources: Arcane Age sourcebook Cormanthor: Empires of the Elves, the novel Evermeet by Elaine Cunningham (with help from Ed, based on material he'd written for sourcebooks), and Demihuman Deities. There's another old book that also talked of the ancient elven histories from the First Flowering and Crown War periods, but I don't have that one anymore, (lent it to another DM that never returned it a few years ago).

Vhaeraun and his sister were close at one point, long ago. After their mother manipulated them both into helping her try to take out their father (she through trickery, he through blackmail), some of the Seldarine wanted her punished for shooting Corellon. Vhaeraun spoke in his sister's defense and pointed out that Eilistraee did not know of Auruashnee's plots, and said he would take her with him into exile. He picked her up and carried her out of Aryvandor (she'd been blasted by the divine wrath of Aerdrie Faenya). He was definitely jealous of her even at that point, but he didn't hate her or hold a grude against her until later (when she prevented him from brining all of the southern dark elves of Illythiri under his wing). Why would Vhaeraun have prevented his twin from being punished or executed by the angry Seldarine goddesses if he was that point 'wholly evil' and didn't care about his sister?

Sancha · Post by **Sancha** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:47 pm

[quote="Argoth":3b4ujx7o]Wait, where does Ghaunadaur go? I've read that before Lolth, most of the drow worshiped the G-blob. Was he and Vhaeraun at a point equally important? Could you state a time reference, who was the first worshiped deity and so on?[/quote:3b4ujx7o]

Vhaeraun first, from the First Flowering (around -30,000 DR) until the middle of the First Crown War/start of the Second Crown War. (around -12,000 DR?) Then Ghaunadar gained great inlfuence with the Illythiri, and then Lolth moved in on them as well.

The shifting of the Illythiri to worshipping members of the Anti-Seldarine happened pretty quickly, relatively speaking, over the course of a couple centuries, iirc. They were angry that their northern cousins had been invaded and conquered by the gold elves, and began the second crown war by attacking the allies of the gold elven kingdom of Aryvandar. Things quickly escalated once they turned to Ghaunadar and Lolth for the power to punish their enemies, and they started doing rather 'evil' things to their neighbours.