4th Edition and the Forgotten Realms

This is the place where the leaders of the Chosen post news. News about the Chosen, news about drow/Eilistraee, news about NWN/NWN2 and news generally considered interesting to us. This is also the place where you can comment on those news items. :rss:

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Ix'Chimalxochitzin
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Post by Ix'Chimalxochitzin » Wed Nov 21, 2007 12:37 am

[Shir'le EDIT] The following post contains spoilers for the Lady Penitent series.


Right. This is entirely my opinion, and in no way backed by official rumors save for some of the basics, most of whom you are more than likely to know anyway.

No, i do not own any of the books, nor have i read them. I just roleplay. Be warned however that i may be correct with my theory, so i suppose i'd have to give a possible spoiler warning, should you decide to read on ^^;

Right.

Eilistraee killed Vhaerun, and took over his portofolio. Back then, i already guessed that Vhaerun's followers would join Eilistraee, given how she was taking things gradually with her coversion.

Now, note that in my estimates, 15% of the Drow are good aligned, 20-30% are Neutral, and 65% Evil, given that they have a good aligned deity whose backing is apparently large enough to not be snuffed out. Eilistraee took over Vhaerun's followers, leaving Lolth (Evil) and Ghaunadaur (Neutral-Evil) as the only other remaining Drow Deities. Vhaerun is dead, and Kiaransalee has no more followers after her name was erased.

Now, i believe the next move for Eilistraee is to move against Ghaunadaur like she had with Vhaerun. Given that Vhaerun's followers are more militant (they seek to crush the Drow matriarchies nowadays), they'd make up a good portion of the army Eilistraee is able to put up now. Since Ghaunadaur believes strongly that the Strong should rule, i can see the remains of his followers join Eilistraee after his defeat, and Ghaundahaur acknowledging Eilistraee as someone stronger than him. Or perhaps a temporary pact to crush Lolth would work as well, given that the Spider Queen is responsable for the drow matriarchal system.

Either way, there'd be a massive deathmatch between Lolth and Selvetarm on one side, and Eilistraee (and possibly Ghaundahaur) on the other. Since Eilistraee wasn't originally part of the Curse that drove the Dark Elves underground to become Drow, i can see the elven Gods lifting the Curse after witnessing the Drow as a race now follow her exclusively, thereby atoning for their past mistakes with demon summoning and being granted the chance for redemption.

The Curse is then lifted, the Drow come back to the surface (save for some of the more fanatical of Lolth's remaining factions) and Eilistraee returns to being an elven goddess again since 'her' Drow have now been granted redemption. Though with the added weight of Vhaerun and Lolth's portofolios, it would make her a Greater Deity now.

Though there is of course the chance of Lolth winning, i doubt that. The facts are that the amount of Drow Dities is starting to thin out, with Vhaerun and Kiaransalee now dead and forgotten respectively. Eilistraee, diametrically opposed to Lolth, is getting stronger, surface resistance towards Drow is lessening somewhat thanks to good aligned heroes like Drizzt, and the only other Drow Deity wants to destroy the matriarchal society Lolth set up, so its unlikely he will join her. Join Eilistraee possibly, or sit back and wait to see who the stronger one would be.

As for magic... Don't know a lot about that, to be honest, i just wanted to throw the theory i thought up in this thread and see if i've guessed correctly this time ^^;
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Post by Vendrin » Wed Nov 21, 2007 3:17 am

For the same reason I didn't move onto Vampire: The Requiem, from Vampire: The Masquerade, I probably won't be moving on to 4.0.

though I wpuld appreciate the removal of all the damn mary sues.
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Post by Argoth » Wed Nov 21, 2007 1:46 pm

Selvetarm is already dead, I think... now sure though...

That's an interesting theory Ix. But on the other hand, as it was quoted in one of the books (Ork King, or something) Drizzt cries out, that the Maiden's followers seem to have vanished. This indicates a drastic change in Her Dogma and way of being, or a far greater threat to us all.

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Arathen
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Post by Arathen » Wed Nov 21, 2007 2:19 pm

but, also, the part where he says that is 100 or so years in the future, so...not quite there yet. Though I do wonder...

I just hope they don't change Eilistraee too much...
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Ix'Chimalxochitzin
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Post by Ix'Chimalxochitzin » Mon Dec 03, 2007 6:40 pm

More theories.

My character, a follower of Lolth, is good aligned. Her reasoning behind this is as follows:

She believes that a goddess does not shape her followers. Rather, the followers that indirectly grant the goddess they worship her power shape her through the things they pray for. If they pray for the death of their enemies, then said goddess would start to lean more towards violence. If the followers believe spiders to be holy, chances are it'll be one of the goddess' forms if the number of her followers believing it is large enough. Worship is power in those realms, so such a (gradual) shaping could very well be possible.

On to Lolth, or more specifically, Araushnee. Back when she was still considered true neutral (as the title goddess of fate implies), she was given reign over the (then) Dark Elves by Corellan's decree, who, as we know now, were deeply involved into demonology.

It even makes sense for them to worship Araushnee, too. If you were involved with summoning -- and subsequently dealing with -- demons that could [i:1bkiwz84]and would[/i:1bkiwz84] fry your a$$ like a cheap side of bacon', wouldn't [i:1bkiwz84]you[/i:1bkiwz84] send a prayer or two to the Weaver of Fate before starting the incantations? I know i would. From that point of view, it seems only logical that she'd be the main Dark Elven deity, and no more than natural for Corellan to appoint them to her as a (sub)race, like Aerdrie had the Avariel elves for being the deity of Air, Weather and Birds.

Now, what if this aspect of the Dark Elves 'infected' Araushnee, causing her to gradually shift to chaotic evil over the course of decades, or even centuries? In comparison, think of it much like how someone can get involved into crime by having the wrong friends. The Dark Elves, later known as the Drow, would be indirectly responsable for the fall of Araushnee to become Lolth, the leader of the Dark Seldarine.

Now, the interesting part is when i look at what happened when Eilistraee took over Vhaeraun's portofolio, gaining the followers of both. As a result, both religious groups are shifting towards each other, it being confirmed that 'Eilistraeen clerics becoming more ruthless in nature, while the Vhaeraunites become kinder.', as well as a growing sect believing in the 'Masked Lady'. Straight from the Wiki on Vhaeraun.

Now, keeping my previous post in mind, what [i:1bkiwz84]if[/i:1bkiwz84] Eilistraee defeats Lolth? Every Drow would follow Eilistraee then for the sole reason of there existing little to no alternatives, and i can't see Eilistraee commiting genocide on Lolth's evil followers, estimated at about 60-75% of all Drow. Because a large portion of her new followers would be evil aligned, i can see an alignment shift happening there as well from the sheer influx of 'evil' prayers to her due to the absorbing of portofolios. As such, Drizzt would not be able to recognise Eilistraeen beliefs as he knows them a hundred years from now.

Again, this is pure speculation, and the reason i had my character think along these lines is because she is still young, and can therefore be wrong. But i believe it makes sense considering the evidence Eilistraee and Vhaeraun gives us, and such is the way my character believes in that part of Lolth that was (is?) good, and trying to enhance that aspect of her by putting her faith in it as one of her priestesses.

As always, if i'm wrong, feel free to correct me ^^;
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Arathen
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Post by Arathen » Tue Dec 04, 2007 10:12 am

It's a good theory, though as for the dark elven prayers infecting Araushnee, I don't think that's the case. In the FR world, Araushee's fall occurred about...-30,000 DR. The Ssri`Tel`Quessir (or, I should say, the Ilythiiri, since the dark elves of Miyeritar didn't turn evil like their Ilythiiri cousins.) didn't start delving into dark magics until way, way later, somewhere in the -12,000 to -10,900 range. Lolth was even the one who seduced them toward that, with the help of a Balor that she had drawn into her service.
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Post by Argoth » Tue Dec 04, 2007 11:13 am

The theory is very nice and logical. I think in general it may be true. But in the case of Lolth, it may not, simply because the time reference stated by Arathen. Thanks for sharing it though. It's a very good theory.

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Post by Ix'Chimalxochitzin » Tue Dec 04, 2007 3:24 pm

*nods*

Thanks for the heads-up and compliment, like i said i'm not [i:1bkmsfbn]that[/i:1bkmsfbn] familiar with FR lore ^_^.

Still, it'd not affect my character's beliefs much though. She'd still try to do what she's doing now, only the reasoning behind it is minimally different. Not much is known about the Dark Elves, Lolth seducing them to demonology would simply be ignorance on her part, and unless she meets a sage with lore stats comparable to Elminster i can't see that change anytime soon :)
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Post by Morfilmar_Desh » Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:42 pm

I like your theories too Ix. :)

Though I'm very confused by all these changes and stuff coming...

I'm not even that deeply emerged in the lore of 3.5 to be honest. :/

But when is 4.0 said to be made official? Anyone know yet?
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Sancha
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Post by Sancha » Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:42 pm

[quote="Arathen":1w7pj3cp]It's a good theory, though as for the dark elven prayers infecting Araushnee, I don't think that's the case. In the FR world, Araushee's fall occurred about...-30,000 DR. The Ssri`Tel`Quessir (or, I should say, the Ilythiiri, since the dark elves of Miyeritar didn't turn evil like their Ilythiiri cousins.) didn't start delving into dark magics until way, way later, somewhere in the -12,000 to -10,900 range. Lolth was even the one who seduced them toward that, with the help of a Balor that she had drawn into her service.[/quote:1w7pj3cp]

Very good points. While the dark elves of Miyeritar didn't turn to evil and start worshipping Lolth and Ghaunadar, they WERE still cursed as Drow during the Descent-- most people (and most D&D sourcebooks) just lump them together. Refreshing to see someone who knows the difference, and the real history. ;) Personally, I think any blame on the Ssri'Tel'Quessir for the Dark Disaster is pure high elven propaganda. It was the Aryvandaar who did that, not the people of Miyeritar.

I have to agree though, it was Lolth that influenced the Ilythiiri, not the other way around. She was already tanar'ri by that point. I'm not sure if the first elves had arrived on Toril yet by then (that was also around 30,000 years ago) Iirc, the first time Lolth came to the realms, in order to seduce Malar into her Anti-Seldarine, there were no elves there yet. It was on later return visits during the Flowering that she discovered the world crawling with elves, and her son and daughter gaining influence over the Ssri-Tel-Quessir. That simply would not do, and for the second time, Eilistraee played right into her mother's hands (Though again, unknowingly. I can't really hold her at fault the way Vhaeraun does ;P )

It's definitely an interesting theory for your character to hold, Ix, but as with so many other 'theories' and 'histories' written by both the Drow and Gold Elves, it isn't true. But that doesn't mean your character can't believe it.

Gods certainly can be influenced by their worshippers (There is a few cases of such having happened in the realms, mostly around the Time of Troubles) but not to that extent. Usually, it's the other way around, with the gods influencing their mortal worshippers.


@Morfilmar --> The 3.5 edition (and 3.0 for that matter) don't really have any lore to immerse yourself in. It's all just text pulled from the 2nd edition sourcebooks and drastically editted down to leave out any of the important details. :P There are a few instances where their editting involved changing little things, but mostly it's all straight out of 2nd Ed, editted to make it fit into a smaller book by leaving out the detail.
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Post by Arathen » Wed Dec 05, 2007 5:54 pm

Heh, I have to thank the Lost Empires of Faerun book for enlightening me about the Ssri`Tel`Quessir. It's a shame they were all cursed, and not just the Ilythiiri. But, apparently the spell that cursed them wasn't as focused as the casters had intended *laughs*
I'm not sure what gods the original dark elves worshiped, really...likely the main Seldarine like most elves, as I doubt they had much dealing with the Dark Seldarine until Lolth got her claws in the Ilythiiri.
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Post by Morfilmar_Desh » Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:47 pm

I see!

Thanks Sancha
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Sancha
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Post by Sancha » Thu Dec 06, 2007 2:03 am

[quote="Arathen":1nto8etq]Heh, I have to thank the Lost Empires of Faerun book for enlightening me about the Ssri`Tel`Quessir. It's a shame they were all cursed, and not just the Ilythiiri. But, apparently the spell that cursed them wasn't as focused as the casters had intended *laughs*
I'm not sure what gods the original dark elves worshiped, really...likely the main Seldarine like most elves, as I doubt they had much dealing with the Dark Seldarine until Lolth got her claws in the Ilythiiri.[/quote:1nto8etq]

Hmmm, I don't have a copy of Lost Empires yet. Didn't know it had anything interesting in it. Cool.

Yes, the spell that cursed them wasn't directly focused (It wasn't Correllon and the other gods that 'cast' the spell, it was a myriad of elves, but wasn't described as any sort of high magic or similar ritual, which would have lead caster to provide focus and direction).
A great shame, definitely. My character has recently devoted her life to attempting to right that wrong (Heh, I wish her good luck there lol)

The original dark elves of Toril were said to mainly worship Vhaeraun. In Miyeritar, both he and Eilistraee were worshipped (as well, I expect, as some of the Seldarine gods, since a large part of the population were Sy-Tel-Quessir, but I've never seen a sourcebook say they did so. But it stands to reason). Miyeritar was said to be the greatest elven kingdom of all, and the pinnacle of both magical and artistic achievement-- a nation known for the greatest of ancient elven musical and artistic achievements clearly had more than just token guidance from Eilistraee and the Seldarine.

In the south, Vhaeraun's attempt to become the sole god of the Illythiri was thwarted by his sister (That's the reason Vhaeraun has a grudge against her), which allowed Lolth and Ghaunadaur to eventually pull many of them away from Vhaeraun and under their evil sway when the second Crown War broke out.
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Arathen
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Post by Arathen » Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:07 am

hmm...was this at a point before Vhaeraun was entirely evil? Or am I misunderstanding something about him? Because it seems odd that they'd worship both Vhaeraun and Eilistraee if he was anything like he was, by my understanding, at the point when his sister slew him and absorbed his portfolio. I'd also like to know where you're getting this info, mostly to sate my own curiosity.
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Post by Argoth » Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:26 pm

Wait, where does Ghaunadaur go? I've read that before Lolth, most of the drow worshiped the G-blob. Was he and Vhaeraun at a point equally important? Could you state a time reference, who was the first worshiped deity and so on?

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