Ascendency of the Last

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Nico
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Post by Nico »

[quote="dav":3v2ykscs]Other factors include the fact that Eilistraee's existence diminishes the exceptional nature of those drow who do break free of Lolth's influence"[/quote:3v2ykscs]This is some pretty silly circular reasoning.
Arathen
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Post by Arathen »

It is silly, to be sure, when put in that manner. Another post I saw said it a lot better. Essentially, when a drow was to seek redemption, it was a leap yes but not that huge of a leap...they transitioned from Lolth to Eilistraee, and in all honestly Eilistraee's clergy held on to quite a few aspects of the Lolthites...the gender-bias being one of these. Despite being good, it was less of a leap than, say, a drow throwing aside all of their cultural beliefs in the search for redemption. Now, I'm probably phrasing it poorly, as it made a lot of sense the way they said it, to me (I lost the link, unfortunately, but it's in the same thread as the statement from Richard Baker). I might not be too happy about Eilistraee's death, and I think they could have transitioned things over time so that Eilistraee's faith shed those more intolerant practices, but...there's not much I can do about that.
"Courage lies not in the lack of fear...but in doing something you are afraid to."

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Thalon Mercrow
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Post by Thalon Mercrow »

well, this settles it. i say we continue to use the 3.5e and pretty much boycott 4e and go about this as if it never happend after all this whole thing only matters if we let it matter. we will simpley countiune as we had before after all what are they going to do to stop us, destroy D&D?
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Post by Arathen »

well, from the reports of a friend that just finished the book, while she does indeed die, it seems that there are clues to a possible return in the future. It's left open enough that she could, and I think likely will, be back in some form. Besides, would Corellon have been so casual when he stepped in to take her place against Lolth if she was dead permanently? It takes a lot more than a beheading to get rid of some deities...they might not return right away, but as long as they are able to hold on to their portfolio and whatnot they can find a way to come back, typically. Hell...[i:490c6352]Bane[/i:490c6352] came back, so I think Eilistraee can do it, with a little help from her father's side of the family ;)

from what I've seen, heard, and read myself...despite the fact that the Promenade was ruined, despite the fact that her faithful are scattered and despairing...Eilistraee is still around in some sense. Perhaps not as powerful as she used to be, right now...likely with her faith smaller and weaker, more disorganized than ever in the new setting, but I doubt everyone would lose faith, and I know that Kaelen will keep going, and perhaps...maybe...if he can find others that still believe, they can rebuild.
"Courage lies not in the lack of fear...but in doing something you are afraid to."

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Post by DarkSongKnight »

I'm completely [b:2hxvaxji]outraged[/b:2hxvaxji] by their reasoning, but not completely surprised.

As for staying with 3.5 or going to 4E...

Paizo http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG has announced that they will be continuing with 3.5 (for now), under the Pathfinder Role playing Game. There is even a free download near the bottom of the page that shows some of the tuning they're making to the 3.5 rules. They were the ones who published Dragon and Dungeon magazine.

There is quite a line-up of talented people who are going to be working on the Pathfinder series, including Ed Greenwood himself. While it may have next to nothing to do with Eilistraee, I'm just suggesting it for those who don't want to move to 4E.

Here http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1031752 is more information.
Tsa'drin
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Post by Tsa'drin »

My friends,

You do not hear from me often unless the matter strikes near to my heart.

Thus, I speak now on this matter.

Eilistraee as a diety, does not need to be dead despite what that book says.

Why? Because Eilistraee belongs to all of us.

Everytime someone will mention to me that Eilistraee is dead, I will tell them "No she isn't".

In my game, my world, in our games, in our worlds, she is very much alive and still a powerful goddess. Why?

Simple: because Wizards of the Coast has said that their over all theme of the new 4th Edition are worlds that are full of darkness, with small points of light where those that are good hold out against the encroaching blackness.

I can't see any stronger symbolism for this then Eilistraee, whose symbol of the Full Moon, is the greatest point of light in the darkness of night. She fights against the darkness of Lolth to give those small numbers of drow who are good a place to be.

Wizards really missed an opportunity here....big time.

The greatest symmetry for their new vision was lost by some unknowable desire to get rid of one of the most popular goddesses in the Forgotten Realms.

I think that the symbolism she represents for THEIR vision of the new worlds 4th edition is based around is to valuable to just give up on and let go.

Therefore, let them have the delusions that Eilistraee is dead and that we will let her go.

I wont, and you dont have to either.

Game system wise, 4th edition is not at fault. As a game in and of itself, it is a fine product.

We are talking about the lore nazis at Wizards who don't understand their audience and potential for good symbolism based off their own vision.

Enjoy the game, and use your own power and liberty to tell those that wrote this lore about Eilistraee that they were WRONG.

Eilistraee lives, in all our campaigns and hearts.
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Post by Navarion »

Hello, this is my first post on these boards. I visited them sometimes before, but never had the urge to write anything, until now.

I know of Eilistraee since Baldur's Gate II (in fact Baldur's Gate II brought me to Neverwinter Nights, and my Neverwinter Nights Guild to D&D P&P). Since I informed myself about the dark maiden after Solaufein mentioned her in Ust Natha every character I made worshipped her (and I never played a drow :D always other elves). I've just read about what happened to her, and I'm really shocked... I was making an Eladrin Kensai before, and for the first time I left the "Deity"-part empty. I feared that Eilistraee would get corrupted by absorbing Lloth.
Eilistraee is not the first thing the Wizard destroys. They destroyed the Planescape-Setting years ago, they ripped the Forgotten Realms out of the cosmology that connected it with the other worlds. But these things didn't get lost, because there were people who didn't say "Let's stick with AD&D." but "Let's convert the old rules for Planescape for 3rd Edition!" Now they killed Eilistraee, our tieflings, our aasimar, our angels and much more. But ignoring the 4th Edition is in my eyes not the right way to handle the murder of our goddess. It's a fine system, it has some flaws, but also many merits that I wouldn't want to miss. Let's bring Eilistraee alive in the 4th edition, make powers for clerics of Eilistraee, paragon paths for sword dancers, kick the dragonborn and new tieflings out and look how to integrate the rest.
I don't think, that I will need any of the new forgotten realms source books, but I like the core system of the 4th edition, the setting can be changed.
If you excuse me, I have to fill in a blank spot on a character sheet. I will write Eilistraee!
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Post by Arathen »

I, actually, will save my judgement of the new FR setting for when the books come out. But...rest assured...my first adventure will be integrating Eilistraee back into the Realms. *has an awesome idea, but will save it for when he writes the story version*.

On another note...I was on my way home from work the other night, thinking about all of this, and I looked up into the night sky. The moon had already set, but there was this pinpoint of light high up in the night sky, a bright star or planet, but it gave me a sudden impression..."I'm still here, and I always will be".

I know, I'm weird, heh...but she's alive. I know it :)
"Courage lies not in the lack of fear...but in doing something you are afraid to."

Check out the progress on my book at http://kaavelbaelithar.deviantart.com/
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Post by Argoth »

One thing still brightenes the day: never before had so many newcomers appeared. I am glad that Eilistraee has so many, though hidden, followers.

Still shocked by this unfortunate turn of events.

So they HAD to get rid of Eilistraee, because she messed things up in the Drow pantheon. I don't even want to waste my energy on expressing my outrage.
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Shir'le E. Illios
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Post by Shir'le E. Illios »

[quote="dav":xv1gdztv]Post by Richard Baker on the Ask the Designers thread on the WotC FR boards yesterday (6-5-2008 ):

"Regarding Eilistraee's death... Markus put his finger on one of the biggest reasons. Other factors include the fact that Eilistraee's existence diminishes the exceptional nature of those drow who do break free of Lolth's influence, and the culmination of a major storyline that's been five years in the making."[/quote:xv1gdztv]
In short, Drizzt wasn’t special enough.

The duality between Lolth and Eilistraee, the struggle for redemption, with there being the hope for it, Eilistraee being the ultimate underdog, the light of hope for even the most evil of races, this and more is why I love Eilistraee. And by killing her they’re doing nothing but make the Forgotten Realms drow in the same generic dreg that every setting’s dark elves are.

As for the “major storyline”… maybe next time they should think off a decent ending before starting up such a project. Is it really that complicated to have two deities in an eternal tug-of-wag over the faith of a race? [i:xv1gdztv]That[/i:xv1gdztv] is what the end of their “major storyline” should’ve been, as [i:xv1gdztv]that[/i:xv1gdztv] is something that gives players ample room for adventuring and ample room for interesting stories of their own. Not this “it’s been decided… nothing for you here anymore” BS that they’re pulling now.


But at this point I really don’t care about the Forgotten Realms anymore. Wizards have made it clear, they don’t want us. So I don’t want them anymore either. Done, over, the end. The only reason to stick with them was D&D, the only reason to stick with D&D was Forgotten Realms, and the only reason to stick with the Forgotten Realms was Eilistraee. They made it clear, no Eilistraee anymore in the Realms, so what’s the point of sticking with them?

There are other setting, other rulesystems, that we could fit Eilistraee into. Heck, we don’t even need any rules or such.

I have this vision now of shaping up information for people so that they can easily use the goddess in whatever setting they desire… any setting except the Forgotten Realms as they have abandoned her, any rulesystem except 4E as Wizards have made it clear that they don’t want us anymore so why should we stick around?

In my view Eilistraee [i:xv1gdztv]made[/i:xv1gdztv] the Forgotten Realms drow special. If they can’t see that then I seriously question their competency on everything else and I don’t see why I should trust my enjoyment and my entertainment to them anymore.



[quote="Thalon Mercrow":xv1gdztv]well, this settles it. i say we continue to use the 3.5e and pretty much boycott 4e and go about this as if it never happend after all this whole thing only matters if we let it matter. we will simpley countiune as we had before after all what are they going to do to stop us, destroy D&D?[/quote:xv1gdztv]
I’m boycotting all WotC’s products, which includes further purchases of current 3.5E products. (Not that it matters much, since I pretty much already have all the 3E products I was ever going to buy).

I’m probably also going to extend it by no longer supporting the Realms at all. To begin with, probably placing things in a generic, settingless setting (a bit like their new default setting I’d imagine). And as I said before, I’d like to turn Eilistraee into a lore resource one can use in any setting and game system (well, at least ones that have dark elves or something similar).


[quote="Tsa'drin":xv1gdztv]Eilistraee as a diety, does not need to be dead despite what that book says.

Why? Because Eilistraee belongs to all of us.[/quote:xv1gdztv]
I agree with that, or I’d shut down this site. We’re not mad because Eilistraee is dead, because she isn’t. We’re mad because the Forgotten Realms are dead.

I often hear the argument “but you can still use her in your own campaigns”, but that’s missing the point.

The beauty of it was that there was this world shared by millions that we were a part of. You could walk up to any Forgotten Realms fan and without knowing them or explaining anything to them have a conversation about Eilistraee. The setting and the games would interest other people in the goddess and find their way here, to our little corner of the larger Forgotten Realms community. In fact, isn’t that how pretty much all of us ended up here? You read or heard about Eilistraee from some official source (like the sourcebooks or one of the computer games) and ended up finding this place.

But none of that will happen now, not for any new material at least. It seems that no further sourcebooks will even mention her, no future games will include her anymore, she simply doesn’t exist anymore. There’ll never be any new, official details on the goddess, officially she won’t evolve anymore, stay frozen at what she was before she died.

And sure, we can, and we will, carry that on ourselves. But it’ll never have the stamp of being official and it’ll always clash with what other people would say or do. No longer can we have discussions about how she ‘is’, instead it becomes something much more nebulous: how she should be. And in that our views and those of people not part of our community but interested in preserving her will likely clash (unless the community at large agrees on someone to carry the official torch in this that Wizards used to have).

I mean, now it’s little more than someone making up a deity themselves and trying to form a community around this.

By killing Eilistraee in the Forgotten Realms setting they’re cutting us off from the shared world, from the shared community.

[quote="Tsa'drin":xv1gdztv]Game system wise, 4th edition is not at fault. As a game in and of itself, it is a fine product.[/quote:xv1gdztv]
Perhaps, but it’s far from the only one. We don’t need 4E. And since Eilistraee was killed for 4E I won’t support 4E in any way, shape or form. Again, they don’t want us, so I don’t want them anymore either.

Buying into 4E now would be like going back to the person who beat you because you don’t know where else to go. If someone beats you then you leave them, you don’t go back hoping that they won’t do it again. WotC beat us and kicked us while we were down… I have no inclination to go back to them.



[quote="Navarion":xv1gdztv]But ignoring the 4th Edition is in my eyes not the right way to handle the murder of our goddess. It's a fine system, it has some flaws, but also many merits that I wouldn't want to miss. Let's bring Eilistraee alive in the 4th edition, make powers for clerics of Eilistraee, paragon paths for sword dancers, kick the dragonborn and new tieflings out and look how to integrate the rest.[/quote:xv1gdztv]
No. As I explained above, I am sorry, but I disagree with you here.

4E might not be at fault, but the people who made it are. I’m not about to go and reward them for that. As people so often say “vote with your wallet”. While I don’t quite believe in that, I am voting with my wallet and letting them know how horrible this change is they’re making by not buying into 4E, by not supporting it in the slightest, by boycotting their company and their further products.

I’m willing to bring Eilistraee alive in any setting and ruleset, except 4E and the new Forgotten Realms.



Bah, I really wish I had time to set up a wiki.



Love -x-x-x-

Shir'le
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-= Shir'le E. Illios =-
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Shir'le E. Illios
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Post by Shir'le E. Illios »

Forgot to add: I'd post on the official forums, but it seems I can't and all my calls to them for help to resolve it have gone unnoticed.

Of course they're probably just get a continuous stream of bitter anger anyway, so can't really blame them for blocking my account.


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Shir'le
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-= Shir'le E. Illios =-
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Post by Argoth »

I have this vision now of shaping up information for people so that they can easily use the goddess in whatever setting they desire…

I would love to sign into this one, except that FR were in this advantageous situation of polytheism in respect to EVERY race, not just one deity to each race, thus we have several deities. This was what made it so special. I've working a long time on changing the system, because it is a little exaggerated. Adapting Eilistraee to ANY setting, would be somehow pointless. But then again, why the hell not. Anything I can help with, I will.

n my view Eilistraee made the Forgotten Realms drow special.

That is so true my lady. I don't want any other setting. I want to live the world, where black-skinned, white-haired elves move about struggling for redemption in the name of good, and not just being a symbol of vileness, malice, evilness in it's essence.

Now Eilistraee is somehow frozen in block of ice, waiting to be summoned once more to lead the drow to her plain, and from there to Arvandor, to their rightful resting place.

Who would take the responsibility of keeping the knowledge of Eilistraee alive and pure?
Nico
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Post by Nico »

Probably the best post about this on the WotC forum thread:

"Working for good and maintaining balance are often matters of small degrees. [b:14ft92fx]If you wish to shape a bush you must prune it gently, not take a scythe to it.[/b:14ft92fx]"
- Danilo Thann, speaking to Master Harper Bran Skorlsun just before he was offered a Harper pin, Year of Maidens
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Post by Rooky »

Can we PLEASE go back to our forum, fuck the rest of the world, like we have so far?

It doesn't matter where the Goddess is dead, she's not dead here and she never will be.
I haven't checked 4E so far, but it does seem like a worthwhile system. If the High Priestess disagrees, we'll speak of it no further, and not mention WotC until she drops the 8 year old act.

And yes, we are having a friggin' rise in numbers.
I say we throw in another poor soul to help maintain them. It does say we (mostly) are friendly.
:3
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Post by Bhaern Quel »

[quote="Shir'le E. Illios":3k6qo4qb]Forgot to add: I'd post on the official forums, but it seems I can't and all my calls to them for help to resolve it have gone unnoticed.

[/quote:3k6qo4qb]
I might be able to help if you tell me more about the problem, the boards are indeed hard to work with at times. I managed to help others on how to get in.
PM me with details if you wish.
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