Personally I prefer to not acknowledge 4E at all. That version of the Realms doesn't exist for me.
Love -x-x-x-
Shir'le
4E: What do we do?
Moderators: Shir'le E. Illios, Bhaern Quel
-
Shir'le E. Illios
- High Priestess
- Posts: 2352
- Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:51 pm
- Location: Eilistraee.com
- Contact:
-= Shir'le E. Illios =-
Chosen of Eilistraee
-
Fire_Wraith
- Maid
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 7:00 am
The problem, as I see it, is not so much that Eilistraee is dead. Rather, it is the rationale and the manner in which she was killed - specifically, at the behest of the game designers who decided that was no longer wanted - either [b:v2m8h0kv]without[/b:v2m8h0kv] taking into account the desires of the fans, or in discounting those desires. In my opinion, many of the Fourth Edition changes to FR have the heavy-handed tone of "this is what we think you like" rather than "tell us what you like about FR." Bottom line, I do not trust WoTC not to continue to pull similar stunts, and further take myself and others like me for granted.
In contrast, I have had many positive experiences both with Paizo, and the Pathfinder products released thus far (Rise of the Runelords and Curse of the Crimson Throne). I have gotten a distinct impression that Paizo is more attentive to the sensibilities of their fans, and more responsive as well. This is not to say that individual designers at WoTC do not care, but that due to a variety of factors, the company as a whole has come off that way.
My personal suggestion (and what I would most likely do) would be to place elements in the Pathfinder campaign world as desired. I would not suggest creating a storyline that branches off of FR, especially not one that attempts to incorporate the Lady Penitent series.
Rather, I would approach it from a 'fill in the blanks' perspective, in the sense that "this has always been there, it was just never written about." Some adjustments might need to be made depending on the specifics of the history of the Elves of Golarion, but that's hardly an insurmountable obstacle. In many ways, this is the same way that Eilistraee was first introduced into the Forgotten Realms in the first place.
What essentially would need to be answered/added:
[list:v2m8h0kv]1) Drow in the Underdark - Not that difficult to add, since it's fairly easy to imagine that there might be cities of evil elves deep below the surface which no one knew about.
2) An origin story for said Drow - Again, not too difficult. I might go so far as to suggest that some of the inconsistencies in the FR versions could be avoided.
3) An explanation of who Eilistraee is in this setting, and why - This isn't about changing her, but rather, in making her fit. This has more to do with specific questions about Corellon and Lolth, and where she came from, as those two deities may not even exist. However, I think that this part of the story can be adjusted to fit the setting, without really altering anything that makes Eilistraee, Eilistraee.
[/list:u:v2m8h0kv]
Of course, the above goes for any other standard high fantasy setting, really, not just Pathfinder. One could place her into Greyhawk easily enough, if desired (as everything but #3 is already done), for example.
In contrast, I have had many positive experiences both with Paizo, and the Pathfinder products released thus far (Rise of the Runelords and Curse of the Crimson Throne). I have gotten a distinct impression that Paizo is more attentive to the sensibilities of their fans, and more responsive as well. This is not to say that individual designers at WoTC do not care, but that due to a variety of factors, the company as a whole has come off that way.
My personal suggestion (and what I would most likely do) would be to place elements in the Pathfinder campaign world as desired. I would not suggest creating a storyline that branches off of FR, especially not one that attempts to incorporate the Lady Penitent series.
Rather, I would approach it from a 'fill in the blanks' perspective, in the sense that "this has always been there, it was just never written about." Some adjustments might need to be made depending on the specifics of the history of the Elves of Golarion, but that's hardly an insurmountable obstacle. In many ways, this is the same way that Eilistraee was first introduced into the Forgotten Realms in the first place.
What essentially would need to be answered/added:
[list:v2m8h0kv]1) Drow in the Underdark - Not that difficult to add, since it's fairly easy to imagine that there might be cities of evil elves deep below the surface which no one knew about.
2) An origin story for said Drow - Again, not too difficult. I might go so far as to suggest that some of the inconsistencies in the FR versions could be avoided.
3) An explanation of who Eilistraee is in this setting, and why - This isn't about changing her, but rather, in making her fit. This has more to do with specific questions about Corellon and Lolth, and where she came from, as those two deities may not even exist. However, I think that this part of the story can be adjusted to fit the setting, without really altering anything that makes Eilistraee, Eilistraee.
[/list:u:v2m8h0kv]
Of course, the above goes for any other standard high fantasy setting, really, not just Pathfinder. One could place her into Greyhawk easily enough, if desired (as everything but #3 is already done), for example.
The question of introducing the drow to Pathfinder (or rather revealing their presence) is quite easy. I've always adapted an explanation used by Tolkien when he used to talk about the Middle Earth. It simply was soooooo long ago, that no signs are left for use to use as proof that elves really lived here. In other words, the war between elves was so vicious, so destructive and so despised off that after taking the drow to the Underdark (where they had to lick their wounds, and in time developed a little more differently, which would explain the lack of their presence) that everyone had already forgotten them, or refused to remember about the horrors they represented.
But I guess everything will be clear in a maybe not too distant time.
But I guess everything will be clear in a maybe not too distant time.
They did the exact same thing SOE did with the NGE to SWG. Told us what we liked, and thought they could force us to accept it. And watched 1/2 their entire subscriber base leave the game, with about 75% of the remaining leaving within the next 6 months.
We'll see an apology from these idiots a year from now, or so.
I'm excited about Pathfinder, too. The talent onboard is growing with big figures. Monte Cook, one of the original and most important architects of the 3rd Ed is onboard for it recently, too.
We'll see an apology from these idiots a year from now, or so.
I'm excited about Pathfinder, too. The talent onboard is growing with big figures. Monte Cook, one of the original and most important architects of the 3rd Ed is onboard for it recently, too.
It is difficult for others to truly speak their heart or listen to it. The words often prove difficult, or they do not come at all - Brianna
-
Narsia Ny'Dhun
- Resident
- Posts: 450
- Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 3:51 pm
- Contact:
Re: 4E: What do we do?
[quote="Shir'le E. Illios":2f7hzm65]So I thought I’d ask you… where do you think we should go from here?[/quote:2f7hzm65]
I just got here Shir'le, but the changes of 4th edition in general and the changes of the Spellplague in particular have had mixed reactions across the entire D&D community.
I picked "Other", but before I tell you why I picked "Other", I'll tell you why I didn't pick the previous options.
[i:2f7hzm65]"Go 4E; try and make Eilistraee fit in 4E."[/i:2f7hzm65] - I'm pretty busy lately, so I don't have time to learn a new edition of D&D. The fact that there is only going to be three FR books probably means that it will have very limited coverage and that uncovered things would need to be converted over from 3rd edition (or earlier editions).
If that isn't bad enough, I think that the FR time-jump is going to kill off a ton of non-elven PCs (or force GMs to come up with unbelievable reasons for them to stay alive). The Spellplague is just plain silly and the destruction of areas like Maztica (so that Returned Abeir can take its place) are a slap in the face for fans of the out of print parts of FRCS.
So personally, I don't want to do the work involved in moving over to a version of FRCS that ruins a lot of the things about Toril that I like.
[i:2f7hzm65]"Stick with 3E; ignore 4E and keep what we have."[/i:2f7hzm65] - This is actually what [b:2f7hzm65]I[/b:2f7hzm65] am doing. But you didn't ask what [b:2f7hzm65]I[/b:2f7hzm65] should do - you asked what [b:2f7hzm65]you[/b:2f7hzm65] should do. I think this option would be bad for your website.
4th edition has forced my hand, because most 3rd edition books are going out of print and I need to buy them now or loose my chance. I'm a Spelljammer fan, rather than just a FRCS fan, so I've got to buy up stuff for Greyhawk, Dragonlance [b:2f7hzm65]and[/b:2f7hzm65] Forgotten Realms.
I've just ordered the entire 3rd edition Dragonlance product line and am hunting down the Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms products I want. I'm not getting [b:2f7hzm65]all[/b:2f7hzm65] the FR stuff, but I want to get the useful stuff (including Underdark).
[i:2f7hzm65]"Abandon D&D; fit Eilistraee in another rule system(s)."[/i:2f7hzm65] - I'm not abandoning D&D. If anything, I feel that 4th edition D&D has abandoned [b:2f7hzm65]me[/b:2f7hzm65]. I see no reason to ignore the good work of earlier authors. There is nothing wrong with the old books that people already like.
[i:2f7hzm65]"Abandon systems; stick purely with Eilistraee’s background."[/i:2f7hzm65] - There is merit in giving people background information about Eilistraee that is not flooded with D&D stats. But I think that removing all references to D&D from the website would be an overreaction. Dungeons and Dragons is the reason why Eilistraee got developed and people are going to want to know stuff about the novels and RPG products that references to Eilistraee are found in.
[i:2f7hzm65]"Abandon Eilistraee; shut down the site."[/i:2f7hzm65] - That would just be awful. Awful and pointless. You have a bunch of Eilistraee fans here. I see no reason for their community to be destroyed.
[i:2f7hzm65]"Other (please explain)."[/i:2f7hzm65] - Apart from shutting down the site and abandoning things, I see positive aspects to several of your other options. That is why I didn't vote for any of them in particular.
I don't want to switch to 4th edition (at least not yet), but other people [b:2f7hzm65]do[/b:2f7hzm65] want to make the switch. Some of those 4e fans are going to want to ignore the official canon and put Eilistraee into their FRCS games. [i:2f7hzm65]It isn't [b:2f7hzm65]their[/b:2f7hzm65] fault, that WotC have made decisions that a lot of fans are not happy with.[/i:2f7hzm65] I think that 4e fans [b:2f7hzm65]deserve[/b:2f7hzm65] to be able to have Eilistraee involved in their game. If WotC won't put her there, I'd say it is up to your website or another FR website to help out those fans. Despite any anger you have towards WotC, I think those fans deserve to be welcomed and encouraged to make a 4e conversion of Eilistraee (and rules for her divine servants).
I'm sticking with 3rd edition. So I'd hope that you would also welcome the people sticking with 3rd edition and encourage them to create new content for the 3rd edition rules. Maybe you could also find old unconverted 1st and 2nd edition drow stuff and convert it over to 3rd edition.
I'm not sure I'm switching to Pathfinder, but I'm sure many people will use it. So 3.75 conversions of Eilistraee and other drow stuff could help fans to do that.
I don't want you to abandon systems, but crunch free Eilistraee stuff would be extremely helpful for anyone who wanted to use he in another RPG. It would also be useful to novel fans who may not understand the D&D rules.
Something you didn't mention is earlier versions of D&D. There is nothing wrong with the way that "old school" versions of D&D work. If someone wants to play 2nd or 1st edition AD&D or even OD&D, they should be able to put Eilistraee into their game.
So while I will pick sticking with 3.5 and building upon the 3rd edition FRCS (to create a 3rd edition Realmspace), I think your website should go beyond what any one person would do.
I think you should get over the hurt you feel from WotC's decision* and renew your commitment to being [b:2f7hzm65]the[/b:2f7hzm65] Eilistraee website.
[i:2f7hzm65]* = I'm not saying this is an easy thing, but I think it is a necessary thing. All the ranting in the world isn't going to get WotC to pulp books they have already published. A great looking 4e Eilistraee PDF that keeps her alive, would be a far more productive way to "combat" any canon changes you dislike. And you actually need 4e fans to get that made.[/i:2f7hzm65]
I think you should welcome [b:2f7hzm65]all[/b:2f7hzm65] Eilistraee fans. The versions of D&D that gamers choose to play and the novels that novel fans like to read should not have an impact on the welcome they get here.
If people want to design Eilistraee-related game material for 4th edition, 3rd edition, Pathfinder, AD&D, OSRIC, C&C or GURPS, then I think that this place should be [b:2f7hzm65]the[/b:2f7hzm65] place where they are all welcome to come and ask questions.
If people want to write Eilistraee-related fan fiction, then this place should be [b:2f7hzm65]the[/b:2f7hzm65] place for them to get advice.
If they want to create drow artwork and poems then you could help fans to see their work.
I think that eilistraee.com should do all of that and more stuff that I haven't thought of. I think you need to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat and turn this place into the number 1 place for people to talk about the goddess that stops drow from being two dimentional bad guys.
And the only way to do that is to get any anger or sadness out of your system and then to start dancing the good dance.
I just got here Shir'le, but the changes of 4th edition in general and the changes of the Spellplague in particular have had mixed reactions across the entire D&D community.
I picked "Other", but before I tell you why I picked "Other", I'll tell you why I didn't pick the previous options.
[i:2f7hzm65]"Go 4E; try and make Eilistraee fit in 4E."[/i:2f7hzm65] - I'm pretty busy lately, so I don't have time to learn a new edition of D&D. The fact that there is only going to be three FR books probably means that it will have very limited coverage and that uncovered things would need to be converted over from 3rd edition (or earlier editions).
If that isn't bad enough, I think that the FR time-jump is going to kill off a ton of non-elven PCs (or force GMs to come up with unbelievable reasons for them to stay alive). The Spellplague is just plain silly and the destruction of areas like Maztica (so that Returned Abeir can take its place) are a slap in the face for fans of the out of print parts of FRCS.
So personally, I don't want to do the work involved in moving over to a version of FRCS that ruins a lot of the things about Toril that I like.
[i:2f7hzm65]"Stick with 3E; ignore 4E and keep what we have."[/i:2f7hzm65] - This is actually what [b:2f7hzm65]I[/b:2f7hzm65] am doing. But you didn't ask what [b:2f7hzm65]I[/b:2f7hzm65] should do - you asked what [b:2f7hzm65]you[/b:2f7hzm65] should do. I think this option would be bad for your website.
4th edition has forced my hand, because most 3rd edition books are going out of print and I need to buy them now or loose my chance. I'm a Spelljammer fan, rather than just a FRCS fan, so I've got to buy up stuff for Greyhawk, Dragonlance [b:2f7hzm65]and[/b:2f7hzm65] Forgotten Realms.
I've just ordered the entire 3rd edition Dragonlance product line and am hunting down the Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms products I want. I'm not getting [b:2f7hzm65]all[/b:2f7hzm65] the FR stuff, but I want to get the useful stuff (including Underdark).
[i:2f7hzm65]"Abandon D&D; fit Eilistraee in another rule system(s)."[/i:2f7hzm65] - I'm not abandoning D&D. If anything, I feel that 4th edition D&D has abandoned [b:2f7hzm65]me[/b:2f7hzm65]. I see no reason to ignore the good work of earlier authors. There is nothing wrong with the old books that people already like.
[i:2f7hzm65]"Abandon systems; stick purely with Eilistraee’s background."[/i:2f7hzm65] - There is merit in giving people background information about Eilistraee that is not flooded with D&D stats. But I think that removing all references to D&D from the website would be an overreaction. Dungeons and Dragons is the reason why Eilistraee got developed and people are going to want to know stuff about the novels and RPG products that references to Eilistraee are found in.
[i:2f7hzm65]"Abandon Eilistraee; shut down the site."[/i:2f7hzm65] - That would just be awful. Awful and pointless. You have a bunch of Eilistraee fans here. I see no reason for their community to be destroyed.
[i:2f7hzm65]"Other (please explain)."[/i:2f7hzm65] - Apart from shutting down the site and abandoning things, I see positive aspects to several of your other options. That is why I didn't vote for any of them in particular.
I don't want to switch to 4th edition (at least not yet), but other people [b:2f7hzm65]do[/b:2f7hzm65] want to make the switch. Some of those 4e fans are going to want to ignore the official canon and put Eilistraee into their FRCS games. [i:2f7hzm65]It isn't [b:2f7hzm65]their[/b:2f7hzm65] fault, that WotC have made decisions that a lot of fans are not happy with.[/i:2f7hzm65] I think that 4e fans [b:2f7hzm65]deserve[/b:2f7hzm65] to be able to have Eilistraee involved in their game. If WotC won't put her there, I'd say it is up to your website or another FR website to help out those fans. Despite any anger you have towards WotC, I think those fans deserve to be welcomed and encouraged to make a 4e conversion of Eilistraee (and rules for her divine servants).
I'm sticking with 3rd edition. So I'd hope that you would also welcome the people sticking with 3rd edition and encourage them to create new content for the 3rd edition rules. Maybe you could also find old unconverted 1st and 2nd edition drow stuff and convert it over to 3rd edition.
I'm not sure I'm switching to Pathfinder, but I'm sure many people will use it. So 3.75 conversions of Eilistraee and other drow stuff could help fans to do that.
I don't want you to abandon systems, but crunch free Eilistraee stuff would be extremely helpful for anyone who wanted to use he in another RPG. It would also be useful to novel fans who may not understand the D&D rules.
Something you didn't mention is earlier versions of D&D. There is nothing wrong with the way that "old school" versions of D&D work. If someone wants to play 2nd or 1st edition AD&D or even OD&D, they should be able to put Eilistraee into their game.
So while I will pick sticking with 3.5 and building upon the 3rd edition FRCS (to create a 3rd edition Realmspace), I think your website should go beyond what any one person would do.
I think you should get over the hurt you feel from WotC's decision* and renew your commitment to being [b:2f7hzm65]the[/b:2f7hzm65] Eilistraee website.
[i:2f7hzm65]* = I'm not saying this is an easy thing, but I think it is a necessary thing. All the ranting in the world isn't going to get WotC to pulp books they have already published. A great looking 4e Eilistraee PDF that keeps her alive, would be a far more productive way to "combat" any canon changes you dislike. And you actually need 4e fans to get that made.[/i:2f7hzm65]
I think you should welcome [b:2f7hzm65]all[/b:2f7hzm65] Eilistraee fans. The versions of D&D that gamers choose to play and the novels that novel fans like to read should not have an impact on the welcome they get here.
If people want to design Eilistraee-related game material for 4th edition, 3rd edition, Pathfinder, AD&D, OSRIC, C&C or GURPS, then I think that this place should be [b:2f7hzm65]the[/b:2f7hzm65] place where they are all welcome to come and ask questions.
If people want to write Eilistraee-related fan fiction, then this place should be [b:2f7hzm65]the[/b:2f7hzm65] place for them to get advice.
If they want to create drow artwork and poems then you could help fans to see their work.
I think that eilistraee.com should do all of that and more stuff that I haven't thought of. I think you need to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat and turn this place into the number 1 place for people to talk about the goddess that stops drow from being two dimentional bad guys.
And the only way to do that is to get any anger or sadness out of your system and then to start dancing the good dance.
Last edited by Dostrealt on Wed Oct 01, 2008 1:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
Since I assume most people here are going to resurrect Elistraee in 4th edition anyway I have an idea.
Basically with the Spellplague we have a 200-year gap. Afterwards the world has been changed, darker, more dangerous. Since most of us resent the death of Eilistraee anyway we can play in the gap. Gods has been resurrected before so why don't we roleplay it? The medium still eludes me, perhaps it can be done on the forums? Assuming we stick with the canon we can still play out a campaign were Eilistraee is restored during the gap. If someone has the guts we can define to which extent Eilistraee exists in 4th edition, if any.
Basically I am suggesting that instead of simply adapting to 4th edition we can adapt 4th edition (the setting, that is) to us, roleplay Eilistraee's restoration and write about the eilistraeean drow ourselves. It is a challenge, of course, but one I would gladly help with if I am able.
Basically with the Spellplague we have a 200-year gap. Afterwards the world has been changed, darker, more dangerous. Since most of us resent the death of Eilistraee anyway we can play in the gap. Gods has been resurrected before so why don't we roleplay it? The medium still eludes me, perhaps it can be done on the forums? Assuming we stick with the canon we can still play out a campaign were Eilistraee is restored during the gap. If someone has the guts we can define to which extent Eilistraee exists in 4th edition, if any.
Basically I am suggesting that instead of simply adapting to 4th edition we can adapt 4th edition (the setting, that is) to us, roleplay Eilistraee's restoration and write about the eilistraeean drow ourselves. It is a challenge, of course, but one I would gladly help with if I am able.
-
Narsia Ny'Dhun
- Resident
- Posts: 450
- Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 3:51 pm
- Contact:
[quote="Lance":2a48sl16]Basically with the Spellplague we have a 200-year gap. Afterwards the world has been changed, darker, more dangerous. Since most of us resent the death of Eilistraee anyway we can play in the gap. Gods has been resurrected before so why don't we roleplay it? The medium still eludes me, perhaps it can be done on the forums? Assuming we stick with the canon we can still play out a campaign were Eilistraee is restored during the gap. If someone has the guts we can define to which extent Eilistraee exists in 4th edition, if any.[/quote:2a48sl16]
That is certainly one way to get to a 4th edition FRCS that is almost identical to the official one. It isn't the way, I'd go, but I think that if people want to use the 4e FRCS it is the easiest way for them to "reinstall" Eilistraee.
[quote="Narsia Ny'Dhun":2a48sl16]The problem with that idea is one that's been stated before, in that it would require us to accept in the first place what WotC did to her in the first place. Personally, I just refuse to do that.[/quote:2a48sl16]
Other gods have died and been brought back. Or they have pretended to die. I think that Lance's idea is a workable one.
Having said that, I'm not going to bother with it. As I said I don't like the (200) year time jump and I don't like the destruction of Maztica. There are a ton of other things I don't like to.
Reinstalling Eilistraee won't fix Forgotten Realms: The Next Generation, because too many other things are un-Greenwoodly.
My solution is to stick with 1372 DR. All these 4e changes can be future-history (or maybe possible future-history) as far as I am concerned.
The only way I can see myself using 4th edition FRCS is as an omen of what may come to pass if the players don't pull together and prevent X, Y and Z from occuring and sending Toril on a path of doom.
That is certainly one way to get to a 4th edition FRCS that is almost identical to the official one. It isn't the way, I'd go, but I think that if people want to use the 4e FRCS it is the easiest way for them to "reinstall" Eilistraee.
[quote="Narsia Ny'Dhun":2a48sl16]The problem with that idea is one that's been stated before, in that it would require us to accept in the first place what WotC did to her in the first place. Personally, I just refuse to do that.[/quote:2a48sl16]
Other gods have died and been brought back. Or they have pretended to die. I think that Lance's idea is a workable one.
Having said that, I'm not going to bother with it. As I said I don't like the (200) year time jump and I don't like the destruction of Maztica. There are a ton of other things I don't like to.
Reinstalling Eilistraee won't fix Forgotten Realms: The Next Generation, because too many other things are un-Greenwoodly.
My solution is to stick with 1372 DR. All these 4e changes can be future-history (or maybe possible future-history) as far as I am concerned.
The only way I can see myself using 4th edition FRCS is as an omen of what may come to pass if the players don't pull together and prevent X, Y and Z from occuring and sending Toril on a path of doom.
Last edited by Dostrealt on Wed Oct 01, 2008 1:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
-
Shir'le E. Illios
- High Priestess
- Posts: 2352
- Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:51 pm
- Location: Eilistraee.com
- Contact:
Wise words Dostrealt, wise words.
Though I personally wanted to completely ignore 4E (not because it's bad, but because it's the reason they decided to kill Eilistraee) I can see the wisdom in keeping it around for those that do.
For the rest I was already kinda hoping to take things that way; it's what I call the Moonlight Project.
And for an update where things are standing; I've been wanting to install a MediaWiki on the site so that we can start putting these things in. But for that the site needs to be upgraded to PHP5 (it's on PHP4 atm) and I've been trying to get a hold of my site host for weeks now without a word.
Love -x-x-x-
Shir'le
Though I personally wanted to completely ignore 4E (not because it's bad, but because it's the reason they decided to kill Eilistraee) I can see the wisdom in keeping it around for those that do.
For the rest I was already kinda hoping to take things that way; it's what I call the Moonlight Project.
And for an update where things are standing; I've been wanting to install a MediaWiki on the site so that we can start putting these things in. But for that the site needs to be upgraded to PHP5 (it's on PHP4 atm) and I've been trying to get a hold of my site host for weeks now without a word.
Love -x-x-x-
Shir'le
-= Shir'le E. Illios =-
Chosen of Eilistraee
It is of course a complicated issue. Many people here was excited about 4th edition an in the end we were, in a way, betrayed. There were many changes in FR which I detest. I think it was a mistake "thinning out" the deities. While Mystra has essentially played out her role I really felt that the death of Helm and, of course, Eilistraee served no purpose other than to make the game simpler for new players. The changes in FR were absurd but there is nothing wrong with the system itself (4th edition, that is) from my point of view. I'd ditch the setting but using the system, but that is just me.
-
Talwyn Aureliano
- Lord||Lady
- Posts: 1480
- Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2008 2:27 pm
- Location: Western Australia
- Contact:
I'm starting to find that you go away for a couple of months and suddenly that faceless suits at WOTC go off and remove one of the most popular deity's from FR while you aren't watching!
[sigh]
Well this confirms my complete contempt for WoTC's management.
Anyway, now that we will no longer be getting any offical "canon" lore on Eilistraee from WoTC it is upto us to keep the faith alive.
The goddess will only continue if we continue to believe in her.
Followers fall and join her in the eternal dance but she will need new followers and new worlds to inhabit. A goddess or god is never truly dead, just look at Bane and a whole swag of other deities in the FR pantheon that have been killed off and have come back.
In light of the situation, I'm wondering then if they have killed Eilistraee off, does that mean they have no longer any claim to the intelectual property she represents? I know Ed Greenwood sold his rights long ago to TSR who then in turn sold them onto WoTC but if WoTC have washed their bloody hands of Eilistraee, then using her lore and mythos to continue her divinity in other gaming worlds shouldn't be a problem. I think a legal opinion may be required here to make sure they can't sue for infringement of intellectual property but if they've killed off a character, the character is dead and that means they no longer intend to use it.
This leads to a second point, if they are serious in axing Eilsitraee from the realms, how much would they want in order to purchase her as intellectual property? This is a question really worth asking as they've made it perfectly clear that they don't believe in there concept of a good drow goddess [WoTC] and have taken steps to get rid of her and her followers from their new FR setting. Thus if that is indeed the case, then its just a matter of price to get them to hand over the rights to Eilistraee. WoTC are all about making money so its just a question of how much they want for the intellectual property. Personally I would rather see it be returned to Ed Greenwood who created her in the first place and would no doubt breath new life and find hidden bits of lore that were never published in any official TSR or WoTC suppliments.
The other idea I like is that Eilsitraee may be dead in the 4E of FR but she is alive and well in other planes of existence. I've had a story in mind for some time now along these lines but due to the pressures of work etc, I've had to curtail much of my writing. However, now that I know WoTC have given Eilsitraee the chop from thier line of material, I'm sort of inspired to drag of the story outline and sit down and start writing it.
[sigh]
Well this confirms my complete contempt for WoTC's management.
Anyway, now that we will no longer be getting any offical "canon" lore on Eilistraee from WoTC it is upto us to keep the faith alive.
The goddess will only continue if we continue to believe in her.
Followers fall and join her in the eternal dance but she will need new followers and new worlds to inhabit. A goddess or god is never truly dead, just look at Bane and a whole swag of other deities in the FR pantheon that have been killed off and have come back.
In light of the situation, I'm wondering then if they have killed Eilistraee off, does that mean they have no longer any claim to the intelectual property she represents? I know Ed Greenwood sold his rights long ago to TSR who then in turn sold them onto WoTC but if WoTC have washed their bloody hands of Eilistraee, then using her lore and mythos to continue her divinity in other gaming worlds shouldn't be a problem. I think a legal opinion may be required here to make sure they can't sue for infringement of intellectual property but if they've killed off a character, the character is dead and that means they no longer intend to use it.
This leads to a second point, if they are serious in axing Eilsitraee from the realms, how much would they want in order to purchase her as intellectual property? This is a question really worth asking as they've made it perfectly clear that they don't believe in there concept of a good drow goddess [WoTC] and have taken steps to get rid of her and her followers from their new FR setting. Thus if that is indeed the case, then its just a matter of price to get them to hand over the rights to Eilistraee. WoTC are all about making money so its just a question of how much they want for the intellectual property. Personally I would rather see it be returned to Ed Greenwood who created her in the first place and would no doubt breath new life and find hidden bits of lore that were never published in any official TSR or WoTC suppliments.
The other idea I like is that Eilsitraee may be dead in the 4E of FR but she is alive and well in other planes of existence. I've had a story in mind for some time now along these lines but due to the pressures of work etc, I've had to curtail much of my writing. However, now that I know WoTC have given Eilsitraee the chop from thier line of material, I'm sort of inspired to drag of the story outline and sit down and start writing it.
In War: Resolution. In Defeat: Defiance. In Victory: Magnanimity. In Peace: Goodwill.
-
Narsia Ny'Dhun
- Resident
- Posts: 450
- Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 3:51 pm
- Contact:
[quote="Dostrealt":27idt59b]
[quote="Narsia Ny'Dhun":27idt59b]The problem with that idea is one that's been stated before, in that it would require us to accept in the first place what WotC did to her in the first place. Personally, I just refuse to do that.[/quote:27idt59b]
Other gods have died and been brought back. Or they have pretended to die.[/quote:27idt59b]
That wasn't really my point. The fact that other gods have died and been revived in the past is irrelevant, it's a moot point since we know the company has no intentions of bringing her back. That's why I say that I refuse to acknowledge what they did. It was horrible, stupid and they drug us along through 9 books over, what, almost 9 years just to get that? No, it's not right. As far as I'm concerned, she never died, she's still alive and well.
[quote="Narsia Ny'Dhun":27idt59b]The problem with that idea is one that's been stated before, in that it would require us to accept in the first place what WotC did to her in the first place. Personally, I just refuse to do that.[/quote:27idt59b]
Other gods have died and been brought back. Or they have pretended to die.[/quote:27idt59b]
That wasn't really my point. The fact that other gods have died and been revived in the past is irrelevant, it's a moot point since we know the company has no intentions of bringing her back. That's why I say that I refuse to acknowledge what they did. It was horrible, stupid and they drug us along through 9 books over, what, almost 9 years just to get that? No, it's not right. As far as I'm concerned, she never died, she's still alive and well.
Harl l'drathir udos alure, Eilistraee lu'Anixiel ulu kyorl udossa zuch
[quote="Talwyn Aureliano":14g91cqb]In light of the situation, I'm wondering then if they have killed Eilistraee off, does that mean they have no longer any claim to the intelectual property she represents? I know Ed Greenwood sold his rights long ago to TSR who then in turn sold them onto WoTC but if WoTC have washed their bloody hands of Eilistraee, then using her lore and mythos to continue her divinity in other gaming worlds shouldn't be a problem. I think a legal opinion may be required here to make sure they can't sue for infringement of intellectual property but if they've killed off a character, the character is dead and that means they no longer intend to use it.[/quote:14g91cqb]
I'm not a lawyer, but I'm afraid that WotC have [b:14g91cqb]not[/b:14g91cqb] revoked their IP rights by killing off Eilistraee. WotC still own [b:14g91cqb]everything[/b:14g91cqb] TSR owned (some TSR settings were licenced, so they don't own everything that TSR ever made).
WotC can legally do anything with their property include ignoring it.
[quote="Talwyn Aureliano":14g91cqb]This leads to a second point, if they are serious in axing Eilsitraee from the realms, how much would they want in order to purchase her as intellectual property? This is a question really worth asking as they've made it perfectly clear that they don't believe in there concept of a good drow goddess [WoTC] and have taken steps to get rid of her and her followers from their new FR setting. Thus if that is indeed the case, then its just a matter of price to get them to hand over the rights to Eilistraee. WoTC are all about making money so its just a question of how much they want for the intellectual property. Personally I would rather see it be returned to Ed Greenwood who created her in the first place and would no doubt breath new life and find hidden bits of lore that were never published in any official TSR or WoTC suppliments.[/quote:14g91cqb]
I've seen lots of fans of out of print campaign settings want to bring back X, Y or Z back from the dead, but it just isn't going to happen. Only two companies managed to get their hands on parts of D&D (Dragonlance and Ravenloft). The companies that got hold of Dragonlance and Ravenloft were both given licences that were designed to revert back to WotC.
The Dragonlance licence was under the control of Margaret Weis Productions (a company run by one of the two major DL developers). If it was possible for anyone to get hold of an "unwanted" part of D&D, MWP would have bought Dragonlance.
One thing you have to take into account is that the history of Eilistraee is part of the Forgotten Realms, so to use her you would need to use elements of the Realms that WotC hasn't dumped. If WotC [b:14g91cqb]wer[/b:14g91cqb]e going to allow someone to use Eilistraee, they would want that other IP "cut out". So you wouldn't get the Eilistraee you know and love, you would get half of Eilistraee.
To be honest, you could use the existing 3rd edition SRD and the OGL to create your own good drow goddess that was similar to (but not derived from) Eilistraee. That wouldn't be Eilistraee either, but it would probably be as close as something you would need to pay millions of dollars to get.
I understand the unhappyness of people who don't like 4th edition changes. But you can't go to war with WotC and you can't buy what you want from WotC.
What you need to do is work [b:14g91cqb]with[/b:14g91cqb] WotC. WotC do want D&D fan websites - they are just about to release a new fan website licence (that is similar to the GSL). This place needs to drop any politics and concentrate on being a resource for fan support for Eilistraee.
It needs to have a nice clear notice that says that Eilistraee is the property of WotC and that this website is not a challange to their trademark status. (Or something similar that is cleared by a lawyer.) And everything here needs to be stuff that isn't generating cash from WotCs property.
I would suggest checking out Northern Journey (which you will find on Candlekeep). I think they had some sort of legal run in with WotC. I think they got asked to not do something and then moved the project over to Candlekeep and cut it back.
[quote="Talwyn Aureliano":14g91cqb]The other idea I like is that Eilsitraee may be dead in the 4E of FR but she is alive and well in other planes of existence. I've had a story in mind for some time now along these lines but due to the pressures of work etc, I've had to curtail much of my writing. However, now that I know WoTC have given Eilsitraee the chop from thier line of material, I'm sort of inspired to drag of the story outline and sit down and start writing it.[/quote:14g91cqb]
Well personally, I'm not going with the FR time jump, so I can just ignore all of this. Even if I switch to 4th edition (which I don't anticipate doing) I'll continue to use 3rd edition history.
But what you suggested is one way 4th edition fans could use Eilistraee. I'm sure that there are plenty of other ways and this website could collect and list them all.
WotC haven't really done anything with the outer planes of Forgotten Realms. I'm sure that [b:14g91cqb]some[/b:14g91cqb] people would enjoy a Planescape like game involving the home planes of the Seldarine and the anti-Seldarine. You could probably put some fan material up here.
But if you are thinking of writing Forgotten Realms stories, don't forget that you are playing with things that WotC still own. You can't charge for it and WotC can decide if they want to stop you from distributing your story at any time.
I'm not totally aware of their policy on fan-fiction (as opposed fan RPG material), but I do know that Dragonlance Nexus (the leading Dragonlance fan website) got told to pull their Dragonlance fan fiction off of the Internet. There are other websites out there that still have Dragonlance fiction on them. I'm not sure if WotC are ignoring them, or if they just don't know about them.
If you do decide to write a story, I'd strongly advise you to find out WotC's guildlines for D&D stuff (which I [b:14g91cqb]think[/b:14g91cqb] is no sex and no graphic violence) and make sure you don't put [b:14g91cqb]any[/b:14g91cqb] of the stuff they don't like into your story.
And most importantly - do not publically trash Wizards of the Coast. Do some cool stuff that allows Eilistraee fans to have a bit of fun, but keep any politics about WotC out of it.
A lot of people (not just Eilistraee fans or FRCS fans) think that WotC's D&D designers have done the wrong thing with the Realms. But you need to get over any anger and make your message about the fun that FRCS can be if Eilistraee is put back into the Realms*.
[i:14g91cqb]* = Or never taken out of the Realms.[/i:14g91cqb]
If this website is all about that sort of stuff, then it [b:14g91cqb]enhances[/b:14g91cqb] what WotC is doing and should not be seen to be "damaging their sales". (I personally think that a lot more people would buy 4th edition D&D if Candlekeep made a PDF that added all the missing stuff back into the 4th edition FRCS.)
That sort of activity is good for D&D fans and good for WotC. I can't see them wanting to stop anything like that.
I'm not a lawyer, but I'm afraid that WotC have [b:14g91cqb]not[/b:14g91cqb] revoked their IP rights by killing off Eilistraee. WotC still own [b:14g91cqb]everything[/b:14g91cqb] TSR owned (some TSR settings were licenced, so they don't own everything that TSR ever made).
WotC can legally do anything with their property include ignoring it.
[quote="Talwyn Aureliano":14g91cqb]This leads to a second point, if they are serious in axing Eilsitraee from the realms, how much would they want in order to purchase her as intellectual property? This is a question really worth asking as they've made it perfectly clear that they don't believe in there concept of a good drow goddess [WoTC] and have taken steps to get rid of her and her followers from their new FR setting. Thus if that is indeed the case, then its just a matter of price to get them to hand over the rights to Eilistraee. WoTC are all about making money so its just a question of how much they want for the intellectual property. Personally I would rather see it be returned to Ed Greenwood who created her in the first place and would no doubt breath new life and find hidden bits of lore that were never published in any official TSR or WoTC suppliments.[/quote:14g91cqb]
I've seen lots of fans of out of print campaign settings want to bring back X, Y or Z back from the dead, but it just isn't going to happen. Only two companies managed to get their hands on parts of D&D (Dragonlance and Ravenloft). The companies that got hold of Dragonlance and Ravenloft were both given licences that were designed to revert back to WotC.
The Dragonlance licence was under the control of Margaret Weis Productions (a company run by one of the two major DL developers). If it was possible for anyone to get hold of an "unwanted" part of D&D, MWP would have bought Dragonlance.
One thing you have to take into account is that the history of Eilistraee is part of the Forgotten Realms, so to use her you would need to use elements of the Realms that WotC hasn't dumped. If WotC [b:14g91cqb]wer[/b:14g91cqb]e going to allow someone to use Eilistraee, they would want that other IP "cut out". So you wouldn't get the Eilistraee you know and love, you would get half of Eilistraee.
To be honest, you could use the existing 3rd edition SRD and the OGL to create your own good drow goddess that was similar to (but not derived from) Eilistraee. That wouldn't be Eilistraee either, but it would probably be as close as something you would need to pay millions of dollars to get.
I understand the unhappyness of people who don't like 4th edition changes. But you can't go to war with WotC and you can't buy what you want from WotC.
What you need to do is work [b:14g91cqb]with[/b:14g91cqb] WotC. WotC do want D&D fan websites - they are just about to release a new fan website licence (that is similar to the GSL). This place needs to drop any politics and concentrate on being a resource for fan support for Eilistraee.
It needs to have a nice clear notice that says that Eilistraee is the property of WotC and that this website is not a challange to their trademark status. (Or something similar that is cleared by a lawyer.) And everything here needs to be stuff that isn't generating cash from WotCs property.
I would suggest checking out Northern Journey (which you will find on Candlekeep). I think they had some sort of legal run in with WotC. I think they got asked to not do something and then moved the project over to Candlekeep and cut it back.
[quote="Talwyn Aureliano":14g91cqb]The other idea I like is that Eilsitraee may be dead in the 4E of FR but she is alive and well in other planes of existence. I've had a story in mind for some time now along these lines but due to the pressures of work etc, I've had to curtail much of my writing. However, now that I know WoTC have given Eilsitraee the chop from thier line of material, I'm sort of inspired to drag of the story outline and sit down and start writing it.[/quote:14g91cqb]
Well personally, I'm not going with the FR time jump, so I can just ignore all of this. Even if I switch to 4th edition (which I don't anticipate doing) I'll continue to use 3rd edition history.
But what you suggested is one way 4th edition fans could use Eilistraee. I'm sure that there are plenty of other ways and this website could collect and list them all.
WotC haven't really done anything with the outer planes of Forgotten Realms. I'm sure that [b:14g91cqb]some[/b:14g91cqb] people would enjoy a Planescape like game involving the home planes of the Seldarine and the anti-Seldarine. You could probably put some fan material up here.
But if you are thinking of writing Forgotten Realms stories, don't forget that you are playing with things that WotC still own. You can't charge for it and WotC can decide if they want to stop you from distributing your story at any time.
I'm not totally aware of their policy on fan-fiction (as opposed fan RPG material), but I do know that Dragonlance Nexus (the leading Dragonlance fan website) got told to pull their Dragonlance fan fiction off of the Internet. There are other websites out there that still have Dragonlance fiction on them. I'm not sure if WotC are ignoring them, or if they just don't know about them.
If you do decide to write a story, I'd strongly advise you to find out WotC's guildlines for D&D stuff (which I [b:14g91cqb]think[/b:14g91cqb] is no sex and no graphic violence) and make sure you don't put [b:14g91cqb]any[/b:14g91cqb] of the stuff they don't like into your story.
And most importantly - do not publically trash Wizards of the Coast. Do some cool stuff that allows Eilistraee fans to have a bit of fun, but keep any politics about WotC out of it.
A lot of people (not just Eilistraee fans or FRCS fans) think that WotC's D&D designers have done the wrong thing with the Realms. But you need to get over any anger and make your message about the fun that FRCS can be if Eilistraee is put back into the Realms*.
[i:14g91cqb]* = Or never taken out of the Realms.[/i:14g91cqb]
If this website is all about that sort of stuff, then it [b:14g91cqb]enhances[/b:14g91cqb] what WotC is doing and should not be seen to be "damaging their sales". (I personally think that a lot more people would buy 4th edition D&D if Candlekeep made a PDF that added all the missing stuff back into the 4th edition FRCS.)
That sort of activity is good for D&D fans and good for WotC. I can't see them wanting to stop anything like that.
Last edited by Dostrealt on Wed Oct 01, 2008 12:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
-
Talwyn Aureliano
- Lord||Lady
- Posts: 1480
- Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2008 2:27 pm
- Location: Western Australia
- Contact:
You're right in that WoTC can do nothing with the IP they own but it beggers belief that they would effectively axe one of the more popular figures of FR. Sensible business decision? I think not.
Personally I see no point in trying to convince WoTC to bring back Eilistraee when they've made it quite clear they don't think that she and the other 3/4's of the realms pantheon they've killed off are worth their time and effort. I am not going cap in hand to them asking politely to reverse their decision.
I do not have the financial where-with-all to approach them to buy a license for FR but if I did, I'd seriously contemplate it. I honestly think that WoTC have really made a terrible choice with the direction they want to take D&D in with 4E and trying to convince them otherwise would be like the task of Sisyphus, hellish and unachievable.
I'm already past my hot surge of anger and have entered into that calm bay of pure hate for the company I really despise. Also, there is no avenue to vent frustration at this travesty because it'd earn you an automatic ban on WoTC forums and if anything, they should wake up and realise they have really annoyed the core supporters of FR & D&D in general with the direction of 4E. I do not believe in lying nor being concilitory to individuals or organisations who have done wrong in my opinion. If they can't take criticism then it only proves they have egg shell egos. Sometimes the only way to get your message through to people who refuse to listen is to smash down the door through angry protest. I prefer non violence but I still ferverently believe that protests need to be loud and vigorous and if necessary, confrontational because people will just ignore what you are saying but they can't ignore an angry mob throwing petrol bombs [gee I love those South Korean protestors, those guys really know how to throw a demonstartion!
] Heh, imagine that, a rampant crazed torch bearing and pitchfork wielding mob of furious FR & D&D fans storming the offices of WoTC and trashing the place and lynching its members [evil laughter]
But seriously...
In regards to my story, it wouldn't be for profit however I reserve the right to include final editorial content on it and I would not host it here but on a server in a country where they could not brow beat or intimidate with lawyers etc, perhaps China or Brazil?
I may change her name anyway in order to avoid problems with WoTc as well. I do believe that I need to hone my writing but I think that I could write a far better story that does include graphic violence and some adult content than any of the very average D&D fiction that is sanctioned by WoTC these days.
My story will not be set in the realms [i:160ufm0v]per se[/i:160ufm0v] so I can side step that issue.
In regards to WoTC getting fan fiction pulled from sites, well I just think that's really sad and petty and again shows what a mean spirited and uninterested company it really is. It effectively is telling the fans of the product, Dragonlance in this case, that they are criminals and the threats and intimidation that they level at these harmless bits of fluffy fiction is just mind boggling. Why do they feel threatened by such material? If the site isn't charging for it, what harm does it do? [shakes his head] I wonder if it contravines free speech laws in the US? Another lega opinion would have to be sort.
Finally this is my own personal opinion and in no way is the policy of this website which I am only a member scribbler who is deeply saddened & aggreived by WoTC's choice to disembowel FR and kill off one its most popular deitys.
I'm not having an argument with you Dostrealt but I do disgree with the general thrust of your argument that polite discourse will sway WoTC's mind on FR & Eilistraee. The only things that will sway them is plumeting sales of 4E and their other products and a visable fan backlash.
Personally I see no point in trying to convince WoTC to bring back Eilistraee when they've made it quite clear they don't think that she and the other 3/4's of the realms pantheon they've killed off are worth their time and effort. I am not going cap in hand to them asking politely to reverse their decision.
I do not have the financial where-with-all to approach them to buy a license for FR but if I did, I'd seriously contemplate it. I honestly think that WoTC have really made a terrible choice with the direction they want to take D&D in with 4E and trying to convince them otherwise would be like the task of Sisyphus, hellish and unachievable.
I'm already past my hot surge of anger and have entered into that calm bay of pure hate for the company I really despise. Also, there is no avenue to vent frustration at this travesty because it'd earn you an automatic ban on WoTC forums and if anything, they should wake up and realise they have really annoyed the core supporters of FR & D&D in general with the direction of 4E. I do not believe in lying nor being concilitory to individuals or organisations who have done wrong in my opinion. If they can't take criticism then it only proves they have egg shell egos. Sometimes the only way to get your message through to people who refuse to listen is to smash down the door through angry protest. I prefer non violence but I still ferverently believe that protests need to be loud and vigorous and if necessary, confrontational because people will just ignore what you are saying but they can't ignore an angry mob throwing petrol bombs [gee I love those South Korean protestors, those guys really know how to throw a demonstartion!
] Heh, imagine that, a rampant crazed torch bearing and pitchfork wielding mob of furious FR & D&D fans storming the offices of WoTC and trashing the place and lynching its members [evil laughter] But seriously...
In regards to my story, it wouldn't be for profit however I reserve the right to include final editorial content on it and I would not host it here but on a server in a country where they could not brow beat or intimidate with lawyers etc, perhaps China or Brazil?
I may change her name anyway in order to avoid problems with WoTc as well. I do believe that I need to hone my writing but I think that I could write a far better story that does include graphic violence and some adult content than any of the very average D&D fiction that is sanctioned by WoTC these days.
My story will not be set in the realms [i:160ufm0v]per se[/i:160ufm0v] so I can side step that issue.
In regards to WoTC getting fan fiction pulled from sites, well I just think that's really sad and petty and again shows what a mean spirited and uninterested company it really is. It effectively is telling the fans of the product, Dragonlance in this case, that they are criminals and the threats and intimidation that they level at these harmless bits of fluffy fiction is just mind boggling. Why do they feel threatened by such material? If the site isn't charging for it, what harm does it do? [shakes his head] I wonder if it contravines free speech laws in the US? Another lega opinion would have to be sort.
Finally this is my own personal opinion and in no way is the policy of this website which I am only a member scribbler who is deeply saddened & aggreived by WoTC's choice to disembowel FR and kill off one its most popular deitys.
I'm not having an argument with you Dostrealt but I do disgree with the general thrust of your argument that polite discourse will sway WoTC's mind on FR & Eilistraee. The only things that will sway them is plumeting sales of 4E and their other products and a visable fan backlash.
In War: Resolution. In Defeat: Defiance. In Victory: Magnanimity. In Peace: Goodwill.