Just a little bit shorter?
4E: What do we do?
Moderators: Shir'le E. Illios, Bhaern Quel
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Talwyn Aureliano
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[quote="Argoth":1krwvj8v]Can't you guys write a little shorter posts?
Just a little bit shorter?[/quote:1krwvj8v]
I thought drow were long lived beings thus had plenty of time on their hands?
If that is so, then what a half dozen paargraphs worth of ranting to them hm? nothing
Just a little bit shorter?
[/quote:1krwvj8v]I thought drow were long lived beings thus had plenty of time on their hands?
If that is so, then what a half dozen paargraphs worth of ranting to them hm? nothing
In War: Resolution. In Defeat: Defiance. In Victory: Magnanimity. In Peace: Goodwill.
[quote="Talwyn Aureliano":1uuin1f9]I'm not having an argument with you Dostrealt but I do disgree with the general thrust of your argument that polite discourse will sway WoTC's mind on FR & Eilistraee. The only things that will sway them is plumeting sales of 4E and their other products and a visable fan backlash.[/quote:1uuin1f9]
Actually I do not think that polite discussion will have any effect on WotC.
They have made their decision. Most D&D fans (including non-FR fans) think it is a bad decision for the Realms. I bet Ed Greenwood thinks it is a bad decision. But the new Realms is a done deal. Nobody is going to have the balls to go to the bosses of Hasbro, tell them they screwed up Forgotten Realms and ask for some sort of "product recall" to get these books off of the shelves. Nobody is going to ask for some sort of "Bobby Ewing" style Forgotten Realms where the naff 4e nonsense is all "just a bad dream" that Elminster had.
I think the damage to Forgotten Realms really is that serious. The only way to "fix" it is to wipe out 4e.
But WotC are never ever going to do that. Even if they know that everyone hates 4eFR they can't admit that it is the pile of poo that most people are saying it is. After the uber-hype that is 4th edition, an admission that one of its most important elements doesn't work would probably kill D&D as a brand.
(There was a British jewlery company called Ratners. The owner joked that he sold rubbish in his shops and his customers vanished overnight. I think an admission that FR is rubbish would kill it rather than bring back customers.)
So there we are.
I think that polite conversation with WotC would have no effect. I think that rude conversation with WotC would have no effect. I think that ranting and screaming or petitions or any of that sort of stuff would have no effect.
Someone else already said that WotC was acting insane. That is how I see them. I don't see them as evil. I just see them as incompetent people who honestly thought that this was what would be a cool way to make FR work with 4e.
I fully expect them to mangle another TSR campaign setting and another campaign setting every year until someone sacks them or the market share of D&D drops so much that other RPG systems outsell it 100-1 and D&D gets cancelled.
The actual reason why I think that people shouldn't be rude to WotC is that a flame war against WotC is a total waste of time. It isn't going to change anything. It isn't going to help the fans.
Creating an alternative future for 3rd edition is a good use of time. Creating missing content (including Eilistraee) is a good use of time. Creating an homebrew campaign setting (for drow) is a good use of time.
Stuff like that [b:1uuin1f9]will[/b:1uuin1f9] help the fans. Given the mess that WotC have made, I think it is up to the fans to [b:1uuin1f9]fix[/b:1uuin1f9] FRCS.
Actually I do not think that polite discussion will have any effect on WotC.
They have made their decision. Most D&D fans (including non-FR fans) think it is a bad decision for the Realms. I bet Ed Greenwood thinks it is a bad decision. But the new Realms is a done deal. Nobody is going to have the balls to go to the bosses of Hasbro, tell them they screwed up Forgotten Realms and ask for some sort of "product recall" to get these books off of the shelves. Nobody is going to ask for some sort of "Bobby Ewing" style Forgotten Realms where the naff 4e nonsense is all "just a bad dream" that Elminster had.
I think the damage to Forgotten Realms really is that serious. The only way to "fix" it is to wipe out 4e.
But WotC are never ever going to do that. Even if they know that everyone hates 4eFR they can't admit that it is the pile of poo that most people are saying it is. After the uber-hype that is 4th edition, an admission that one of its most important elements doesn't work would probably kill D&D as a brand.
(There was a British jewlery company called Ratners. The owner joked that he sold rubbish in his shops and his customers vanished overnight. I think an admission that FR is rubbish would kill it rather than bring back customers.)
So there we are.
I think that polite conversation with WotC would have no effect. I think that rude conversation with WotC would have no effect. I think that ranting and screaming or petitions or any of that sort of stuff would have no effect.
Someone else already said that WotC was acting insane. That is how I see them. I don't see them as evil. I just see them as incompetent people who honestly thought that this was what would be a cool way to make FR work with 4e.
I fully expect them to mangle another TSR campaign setting and another campaign setting every year until someone sacks them or the market share of D&D drops so much that other RPG systems outsell it 100-1 and D&D gets cancelled.
The actual reason why I think that people shouldn't be rude to WotC is that a flame war against WotC is a total waste of time. It isn't going to change anything. It isn't going to help the fans.
Creating an alternative future for 3rd edition is a good use of time. Creating missing content (including Eilistraee) is a good use of time. Creating an homebrew campaign setting (for drow) is a good use of time.
Stuff like that [b:1uuin1f9]will[/b:1uuin1f9] help the fans. Given the mess that WotC have made, I think it is up to the fans to [b:1uuin1f9]fix[/b:1uuin1f9] FRCS.
Last edited by Dostrealt on Wed Oct 01, 2008 12:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Dregonindil
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eh
I was fairly interested in 4E when I first heard the rumors of it's creation, but now that enthusiasm and curiosity is dead.
I think 3.5 is as far as this adventurer should go.
I felt personally offended when I heard of all the ways they were going to disembowel the realms as we know them.
There is enough material in 3rd edition for the realms as we know them to be interesting for a very very long time, so in these realms I shall stay.
I will not abandon Dungeons and Dragons because it is near and dear to my heart and let whoever wants to play fourth edition, but it is not a developement I have a taste for.
I think 3.5 is as far as this adventurer should go.
I felt personally offended when I heard of all the ways they were going to disembowel the realms as we know them.
There is enough material in 3rd edition for the realms as we know them to be interesting for a very very long time, so in these realms I shall stay.
I will not abandon Dungeons and Dragons because it is near and dear to my heart and let whoever wants to play fourth edition, but it is not a developement I have a taste for.
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Talwyn Aureliano
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That was a very well thought out response Dostrealt and I'm glad we are in accordance.
I've calmed down somewhat now that the initial shock anger and sadness have passed at the death of Lady E and the decimation of FR.
I've become more fatalistic though as I consider what else WotC will do with the D&D franchises like Planescape, SpellJammer etc.
I think what they're trying to do is reboot the worlds and put their own spin on it rather than working within an already established framework. This is a mistake. The fans [us] like the established mileu and if we wanted a new set of "realms", we'd have asked.
In regards to Eilistraee, I think she did get screwed over in the ending of Ascendacy but I'm now quite convinced she is in that limbo state, waiting to return.
With the division of drow into 2 types, brown and black, well that is the largest load of bollocks I've been presented with. Since Lady E is gone and her church in ruins, who is there to help that 20 or so percent out of Lolths grip and back into the light? Corellon will no doubt have his hands full in making sure the elves stay coherent after the spell plague. And sadly I bet the elven pantheon has had its nuts cut off as well, visa vi having many of its deities killed off. This is probably the course di rogor for all the demi human pantheons of FR,
In this case, less is not more.
I've calmed down somewhat now that the initial shock anger and sadness have passed at the death of Lady E and the decimation of FR.
I've become more fatalistic though as I consider what else WotC will do with the D&D franchises like Planescape, SpellJammer etc.
I think what they're trying to do is reboot the worlds and put their own spin on it rather than working within an already established framework. This is a mistake. The fans [us] like the established mileu and if we wanted a new set of "realms", we'd have asked.
In regards to Eilistraee, I think she did get screwed over in the ending of Ascendacy but I'm now quite convinced she is in that limbo state, waiting to return.
With the division of drow into 2 types, brown and black, well that is the largest load of bollocks I've been presented with. Since Lady E is gone and her church in ruins, who is there to help that 20 or so percent out of Lolths grip and back into the light? Corellon will no doubt have his hands full in making sure the elves stay coherent after the spell plague. And sadly I bet the elven pantheon has had its nuts cut off as well, visa vi having many of its deities killed off. This is probably the course di rogor for all the demi human pantheons of FR,
In this case, less is not more.
In War: Resolution. In Defeat: Defiance. In Victory: Magnanimity. In Peace: Goodwill.
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Shir'le E. Illios
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[quote="Dostrealt":3vikabak]I think the damage to Forgotten Realms really is that serious. The only way to "fix" it is to wipe out 4e.
But WotC are never ever going to do that. Even if they know that everyone hates 4eFR they can't admit that it is the pile of poo that most people are saying it is. After the uber-hype that is 4th edition, an admission that one of its most important elements doesn't work would probably kill D&D as a brand.[/quote:3vikabak]
I realize that nothing we do will sway WotC's mind on this and have them change course. But I'm not trying to do that. I'm trying to do what they won't and tell their [i:3vikabak]customers[/i:3vikabak] what a pile of broken crap it is and how they're destroying their own products. Basically in your jeweler example I'm not a store owner telling his customers that he's selling junk, but I'm the person standing right outside the jeweler shop telling not only what junk he's selling, but pointing them to another jeweler that's selling good stuff.
That's why I don't want to support 4E in any way, shape or form. Because I [i:3vikabak]want to see it die[/i:3vikabak]. I don't care how good of a system it might or might not be, but it's responsible for destroying the Forgotten Realms; the people responsible for creating it are responsible for the Realms as well. As you said the only way to 'fix' things is to wipe out 4E and while the company itself might not voluntarily do that, if their customers stop buying into it then that'll still be what happens.
They need to feel what happens when you screw over your own fans.
I'm quite happy to support any and all rule systems and bring Eilistraee to them; 3E, 2nd ed, Pathfinder, GURPS, WoD, diceless... I don't care... but I do [i:3vikabak]not[/i:3vikabak] want to support 4E or any future WotC system/setting. That's why I'm not buying any WotC products anymore, that's why I'm boycotting any FR product to still be released (including things such at the new NWN2 expansion, which even in its title supports the changes to the FR).
I want to spread the word far and wide to people to stop buying into WotC's crap, because maybe then we, as customers, can bring down this atrocity.
Even that might not work, might not happen, but at least we'd have tried. And if it can get a significant chunk out of WotC's profits then so much the better. Because that company doesn't deserve to continue to exist after what it's doing.
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Shir'le
But WotC are never ever going to do that. Even if they know that everyone hates 4eFR they can't admit that it is the pile of poo that most people are saying it is. After the uber-hype that is 4th edition, an admission that one of its most important elements doesn't work would probably kill D&D as a brand.[/quote:3vikabak]
I realize that nothing we do will sway WotC's mind on this and have them change course. But I'm not trying to do that. I'm trying to do what they won't and tell their [i:3vikabak]customers[/i:3vikabak] what a pile of broken crap it is and how they're destroying their own products. Basically in your jeweler example I'm not a store owner telling his customers that he's selling junk, but I'm the person standing right outside the jeweler shop telling not only what junk he's selling, but pointing them to another jeweler that's selling good stuff.
That's why I don't want to support 4E in any way, shape or form. Because I [i:3vikabak]want to see it die[/i:3vikabak]. I don't care how good of a system it might or might not be, but it's responsible for destroying the Forgotten Realms; the people responsible for creating it are responsible for the Realms as well. As you said the only way to 'fix' things is to wipe out 4E and while the company itself might not voluntarily do that, if their customers stop buying into it then that'll still be what happens.
They need to feel what happens when you screw over your own fans.
I'm quite happy to support any and all rule systems and bring Eilistraee to them; 3E, 2nd ed, Pathfinder, GURPS, WoD, diceless... I don't care... but I do [i:3vikabak]not[/i:3vikabak] want to support 4E or any future WotC system/setting. That's why I'm not buying any WotC products anymore, that's why I'm boycotting any FR product to still be released (including things such at the new NWN2 expansion, which even in its title supports the changes to the FR).
I want to spread the word far and wide to people to stop buying into WotC's crap, because maybe then we, as customers, can bring down this atrocity.
Even that might not work, might not happen, but at least we'd have tried. And if it can get a significant chunk out of WotC's profits then so much the better. Because that company doesn't deserve to continue to exist after what it's doing.
Love -x-x-x-
Shir'le
-= Shir'le E. Illios =-
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Dregonindil
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It seemed to me that the book was WoTC's way of....cleaning house so to speak. I had seen in 4th edition that there were only 3 or so main elven gods being focused on, lloth being the only Drow related one. I knew Lloth would remain the dominant faith, but I did not suspect that they would go as far as to kill off 4/5 of an entire pantheon.
It was all very sudden and uncouth, like a big slap to the face of every FR or Drow fan. More than that it did not really make any sense. People like playing Drow and a lot of people like to play Drow that have or try to redeem themselves so naturally, kill off all alternatives to being evil? It is madness.
It was all very sudden and uncouth, like a big slap to the face of every FR or Drow fan. More than that it did not really make any sense. People like playing Drow and a lot of people like to play Drow that have or try to redeem themselves so naturally, kill off all alternatives to being evil? It is madness.
There's always a way to redeem the drow, I guess. If not by Eilistraee, then... maybe... somehow... connected by some very strange and peculiar chain of events... redeemed by Corellon??
O who am kidding? The screwed up big time, so screw them. We remain faithful. In what setting? All will be decided.
O who am kidding? The screwed up big time, so screw them. We remain faithful. In what setting? All will be decided.
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Dregonindil
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steelfiredragon
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Talwyn Aureliano
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[quote="Dregonindil":2thcxs6a]Why exactly are some people thinking the goddess is in a limbo state? Thought the crescent blade always "finished the job" so to speak. 
Wiping out 4th edition...hate to say it but in some form or another it is here to stay.[/quote:2thcxs6a]
Well it's pretty open ended and it does leave a few hints that even Eilistraee gets beheaded with her own weapon, her realm didn't vanish and Corellon was wearing her medalion.
I strongly suspect they will bring her back as other gods who have died have been resureted. What it will need is for Corellon to encourage drow to believe in her and that belief will empower her to return.
However I feel that WotC are no longer responsible nor creative enough to handle this. Plus I believe that there are designers there that hated the Dark Lady and wanted her gone. I know this is going to sound odd but I think I may have gamed with some of them on a couple of NWN servers [they were DM's] and I spoke to them via IRC and I got the impression that a number of them just hated Eilistraee. Anyway, in my eyes she is not dead, she will return. Maybe not immediately but she will come back.
Wiping out 4th edition...hate to say it but in some form or another it is here to stay.[/quote:2thcxs6a]
Well it's pretty open ended and it does leave a few hints that even Eilistraee gets beheaded with her own weapon, her realm didn't vanish and Corellon was wearing her medalion.
I strongly suspect they will bring her back as other gods who have died have been resureted. What it will need is for Corellon to encourage drow to believe in her and that belief will empower her to return.
However I feel that WotC are no longer responsible nor creative enough to handle this. Plus I believe that there are designers there that hated the Dark Lady and wanted her gone. I know this is going to sound odd but I think I may have gamed with some of them on a couple of NWN servers [they were DM's] and I spoke to them via IRC and I got the impression that a number of them just hated Eilistraee. Anyway, in my eyes she is not dead, she will return. Maybe not immediately but she will come back.
In War: Resolution. In Defeat: Defiance. In Victory: Magnanimity. In Peace: Goodwill.
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Dregonindil
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I say continue on with 3rd edition and just forget smedman.
We can fuss and fume all we want but in the end all we can really do is just keep on gaming the way we always have. Yes 4e is a strange and possibly screwed-beyond-all-hope mess, but it has it's fans. We do not need a call to arms to wipe it out, because that would just be unfair to those who like their new edition.
We play our game the way we feel is good and fun. I mean wizards isnt going to come into my home, hold me at gunpoint, and make me play the new edition. Playing 3rd is a lot more fun than complaining about 4th.
We can fuss and fume all we want but in the end all we can really do is just keep on gaming the way we always have. Yes 4e is a strange and possibly screwed-beyond-all-hope mess, but it has it's fans. We do not need a call to arms to wipe it out, because that would just be unfair to those who like their new edition.
We play our game the way we feel is good and fun. I mean wizards isnt going to come into my home, hold me at gunpoint, and make me play the new edition. Playing 3rd is a lot more fun than complaining about 4th.
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Talwyn Aureliano
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[quote="Dregonindil":376se9jx] We do not need a call to arms to wipe it out... [/quote:376se9jx]
Well....ummm....why not? I mean it'd be getting into the spirit of the age what with Jihad and wars of religeon being the [i:376se9jx]cause de celibre[/i:376se9jx] these days?
Surely a bit of righteous fury and maybe a lake of blood plus a mountain or two of skulls of those [color=red:376se9jx]HERETICS![/color:376se9jx] [spits], those [color=red:376se9jx]HEATHENS[/color:376se9jx]![spits], those [color=red:376se9jx]DEFILERS OF THE SACRED TEXTS WHO WILL BURN SCREAMING AGONY IN ETERNAL DAMNATION FOR THEIR HEINIOUS SINS[/color:376se9jx]![spits] is not too much to ask for now is it, eh boy and girls?
*smiles beautifically*
Well....ummm....why not? I mean it'd be getting into the spirit of the age what with Jihad and wars of religeon being the [i:376se9jx]cause de celibre[/i:376se9jx] these days?
Surely a bit of righteous fury and maybe a lake of blood plus a mountain or two of skulls of those [color=red:376se9jx]HERETICS![/color:376se9jx] [spits], those [color=red:376se9jx]HEATHENS[/color:376se9jx]![spits], those [color=red:376se9jx]DEFILERS OF THE SACRED TEXTS WHO WILL BURN SCREAMING AGONY IN ETERNAL DAMNATION FOR THEIR HEINIOUS SINS[/color:376se9jx]![spits] is not too much to ask for now is it, eh boy and girls?
*smiles beautifically*
In War: Resolution. In Defeat: Defiance. In Victory: Magnanimity. In Peace: Goodwill.
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Shir'le E. Illios
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As I'm sure I've said before I have no problem at all with 4E itself, not do I have a problem in general with people liking to play it. In fact, I might've done so myself (even if there are a number of things in there I don't like). I don't even have a problem with a setting like they're making with their new Realms.
What I [i:kuq7t3br]do[/i:kuq7t3br] have a problem with is that they're steamrolling over [i:kuq7t3br]our[/i:kuq7t3br] Realms to do it. What I [i:kuq7t3br]do[/i:kuq7t3br] have a problem with is what 4E is causing them to do to the Realms. What I [i:kuq7t3br]so[/i:kuq7t3br] have a problem with is that anyone who buys any further D&D products is effectively supporting the idiots responsible for all this.
I would be happy to respect other people and let them play what they want, but the problem is that they're doing it at [i:kuq7t3br]our[/i:kuq7t3br] cost. Why should I show them any respect when they don't show any to me first?
There is absolutely [i:kuq7t3br]no[/i:kuq7t3br] reason why this new setting for this new generation of new D&D players in this new edition has to be on top of our Forgotten Realms setting (which, in fact, I would've happily taken into 4E as well if they respected the setting). Why didn't they just make a new setting instead. Heck, they can have Drizzt too for all I care.
But no, they're trying to lure people with the popularity of the name "Forgotten Realms" without actually offering the Forgotten Realms setting.
And [i:kuq7t3br]that[/i:kuq7t3br] is something I have a huge problem with, that is something I simply cannot respect. And I have no respect for anyone who willfully goes along with that.
Love -x-x-x-
Shir'le
What I [i:kuq7t3br]do[/i:kuq7t3br] have a problem with is that they're steamrolling over [i:kuq7t3br]our[/i:kuq7t3br] Realms to do it. What I [i:kuq7t3br]do[/i:kuq7t3br] have a problem with is what 4E is causing them to do to the Realms. What I [i:kuq7t3br]so[/i:kuq7t3br] have a problem with is that anyone who buys any further D&D products is effectively supporting the idiots responsible for all this.
I would be happy to respect other people and let them play what they want, but the problem is that they're doing it at [i:kuq7t3br]our[/i:kuq7t3br] cost. Why should I show them any respect when they don't show any to me first?
There is absolutely [i:kuq7t3br]no[/i:kuq7t3br] reason why this new setting for this new generation of new D&D players in this new edition has to be on top of our Forgotten Realms setting (which, in fact, I would've happily taken into 4E as well if they respected the setting). Why didn't they just make a new setting instead. Heck, they can have Drizzt too for all I care.
But no, they're trying to lure people with the popularity of the name "Forgotten Realms" without actually offering the Forgotten Realms setting.
And [i:kuq7t3br]that[/i:kuq7t3br] is something I have a huge problem with, that is something I simply cannot respect. And I have no respect for anyone who willfully goes along with that.
Love -x-x-x-
Shir'le
-= Shir'le E. Illios =-
Chosen of Eilistraee