Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue

[Aylstra Illianniis]

Actually, since it is a shared world, FR has a lot in common with comics, particularly the fantasy genre of comics. In fact, Devil's Due does the D&D/FR line of comics and graphic novels currently, and they are pretty good. Even if you're not a fan of comic books, you might want to check them out, since they feature some our favorite D&D/FR characters, as well as new ones that we've never seen elsewhere.

Fantasy has long had ties to comic-books, and several of the best writers of FR and fantasy in general are also comic-book fans or writers. (Peter David, Erik deBie, and Sean Renolds, to name a few), You'd probably be surprised how many tropes, themes, and even story-lines the two sometimes have in common. I'm a big fan of comics, myself, and try to read them whenever I get the chance. It often gives me new ideas for use in my games and stories, believe it or not.

[Irennan]

Maybe my idea of comics is kinda off from the actual situation. I'll take a look at the FR comics you pointed out.

[Aylstra Illianniis]

Lol, they have come a long way from the "kiddie" fare of the sixties and earlier! There are some very complex, and often very mature stories now-a-days. Lots of tough ethical decisions, relationship issues, etc, etc,. One of the things that got me into them (and the first comic book that ever made me literally cry) was the 9-11 tribute issue of Amazing Spider-Man that was done just a few months after the event. Yes, real-world events discussed and dealt with in a superhero story. Who knew? It was very moving, as was a later issue of the same title that dealt with his long-time friend Flash being disabled during a mission in Afghanistan while he was in the Army. That one also made me get teary. Stuff I never would have thought they'd put in one when I was a kid, is now everyday fare.

[Dostrealt]

I'm a bit sad that this thread went off-topic and turned into a conversation about WotC's post-5e policy.

Has anyone here actually bought the book (or read it in a shop)?

I actually use a special website to help me find D&D bargains and bought this book (rather than the old Menzoberranzan boxed set, which was out of my price range) a few months back.

It would be nice to talk about the book itself, and how compatible sections of it are with the previous eras of Forgotten Realms.

As someone who does not own the boxed set, one thing I don't know is how dominant Lolth's religion was back then and how open the worship of other drow religions was. But I would have thought that the Church of Eilistraee would have been pretty secretive back then.

I did notice a few (trivial) mentions of the older religions. We could talk about those if anyone is interested in finding out if the book is worth buying.

I think you are [i:1rnwphlw]very[/i:1rnwphlw] lucky to have access to one of the designers of the book, as I had to make a guess based on the information I could pick up on another forum and how much 4e-specific stuff might be in the book. (I don't use 4e, so any 4e content in the book is less useful to me and the balance of "4e crunch" vs "edition free fluff" was a major factor in deciding what price I would be willing to pay.) I kind of think that the way that this discussion has wandered off onto hypothetical 5e WotC policy towards drow has wasted the opportunity to ask Galadhion questions about how to raid this book and best use it in the 3e Era or 2e Era.

If people here want to continue to use the [i:1rnwphlw]entire[/i:1rnwphlw] drow pantheon, then it seems to me that putting WotC's hypothetical policy to one side (as we just will not know it until we actually see it) and going over this book to see what works as-written, what needs tweaking and what (if anything) needs to be tossed out, could make this book a lot more useful for drow fans.

We have an actual physical book here that we can choose to buy or choose to ignore, and focusing on what it actually is might help people decide if it is worth buying. Not buying it specifially because WotC pulled the Eilistraee content [i:1rnwphlw]may[/i:1rnwphlw] be a mistake if the other generic content is useful enough to counter that disadvantage.

And like I said, I managed to pick my copy up cheap, after spotting a deal while browsing a special website I look at. There may be more deals there or elsewhere. It seems that WotC have made Nentir Vale and the Spellplagued Realms into the scapegoats that are justifying converting from 4e to 5e. So maybe some people will be dumping this 4e book at low prices. I figure that if you set yourself a value for this book (90 percent useful, 75 percent useful, 50 percent useful, 10 percent useful or whatever) and you can find a discounted price to match your calculation, you might as well buy it.

I got my (second-hand, but good as new) copy for just £9.48 + £2.80 shipping, which was a lot lower than the RRP over here. I think I got a good deal.

[Irennan]

[quote="Dostrealt":23sd4u04]I'm a bit sad that this thread went off-topic and turned into a conversation about WotC's post-5e policy.


It would be nice to talk about the book itself, and how compatible sections of it are with the previous eras of Forgotten Realms.

As someone who does not own the boxed set, one thing I don't know is how dominant Lolth's religion was back then and how open the worship of other drow religions was. But I would have thought that the Church of Eilistraee would have been pretty secretive back then.

[/quote:23sd4u04]

According to the 2e Menzo source, Eilistraee's faith is very limited in that city. Vhaeraun's cult -while still small- is more diffused, especially among young drow, travelers, or people dissatisfied with the stagnation and non-existent growth caused by Lolth's oppression (even tho IMO those could make excellent followers of Eilistraee, as cooperation among drow and growth as a people is among what she fights for). He also has traitor-priestesses who act as spies and infiltrators, while pretending to serve Lolth, aided by their god's magic which shields them against mind probing.

Eilistraee worship has always been quite secretive and small, even on the surface, because of the heretic hunts run by the Lolthites and the misunderstanding and prejudice -even hate- by people like many humans or elves.

Nonetheless their purpose is to make it so that the drow can finally be free to forge their own future and return to live where they belong to, and do it as a people.
In order to achieve that Eilistraeens have to build relationships with the surface races or somewhat open minded drow (for example, I can see them wanting to operate in Ssamath, even tho there isn't any source that points to that), and we know that they do so by lending their aid and protection to the ones in need, even assisting communities against danger (like the Eilistraeens living in that elven village in one of the WotSQ novels, or the Promenade under Waterdeep), showing that the drow can create, build and flourish, coexist and cooperate with other races. This means that, while having to carefully pick their battles, they do have to make themselves known on the surface and do have to act in the Underdark, by investigating, observing and waiting for opportunities to find drow who are likely to accept Eilistraee's message, or that can be saved from a cruel fate, and to know when it is best to deliver said message. Followers of the Dark Maiden have to show the drow that there is another kind of life, and that there is someone who cares about them, that they have value as individuals.

[quote:23sd4u04]I did notice a few (trivial) mentions of the older religions. We could talk about those if anyone is interested in finding out if the book is worth buying.[/quote:23sd4u04]

I'm interested in those mentions, as long as they aren't generic 'E/V was X and used to do Y, then LP happened', or 'House Melarn rose to power because LP nonsense', because that is already widely known info.

[quote:23sd4u04]
I think you are [i:23sd4u04]very[/i:23sd4u04] lucky to have access to one of the designers of the book, as I had to make a guess based on the information I could pick up on another forum and how much 4e-specific stuff might be in the book. (I don't use 4e, so any 4e content in the book is less useful to me and the balance of "4e crunch" vs "edition free fluff" was a major factor in deciding what price I would be willing to pay.) I kind of think that the way that this discussion has wandered off onto hypothetical 5e WotC policy towards drow has wasted the opportunity to ask Galadhion questions about how to raid this book and best use it in the 3e Era or 2e Era.

If people here want to continue to use the [i:23sd4u04]entire[/i:23sd4u04] drow pantheon, then it seems to me that putting WotC's hypothetical policy to one side (as we just will not know it until we actually see it) and going over this book to see what works as-written, what needs tweaking and what (if anything) needs to be tossed out, could make this book a lot more useful for drow fans.

We have an actual physical book here that we can choose to buy or choose to ignore, and focusing on what it actually is might help people decide if it is worth buying. Not buying it specifially because WotC pulled the Eilistraee content [i:23sd4u04]may[/i:23sd4u04] be a mistake if the other generic content is useful enough to counter that disadvantage.

[/quote:23sd4u04]

Since you don't own the older tomes, I get what you mean. However between Drow of the Underdark 2e, Menzoberranzan 2e, Demihuman Deities 2e, Faiths and Pantheons 3e, we have a lot of info about the [i:23sd4u04]whole[/i:23sd4u04] drow pantheon, Menzo and the drow in general, that a book meant as an introduction to the Underdark (like Menzo 4e is) and whose content appears to largely come from those sources (which makes it quite useful for 2e 3e era, if you don't already own old material), can't really improve. The only significant new lore that I've seen reported by people to be there is the Demonweave thingy, a RSE that WotC proceeded to drop and not develop further (except in the organized encounters, where a bunch of adventurers aided by Mystra defeat her). There is the new house rankings, but I don't see it as enough to warrant buying the book, especially given the detail about houses and their relations that you can find in the 2e Menzo source (especially if you play before or during the 1370s, where the new ranking can't be applied).

Now adding the Eilistraee/Vhaeraun faction, expanding and try to give at least [i:23sd4u04]some[/i:23sd4u04] little sense to the events in LP (which make very little, especially in relation to what Eilistraee's goal is), adding plot hooks and connecting the Underdark to the Feydark, would have been something actually new and refreshing. But no, WotC even refused to publish it as DDI content, despite the popularity of the two deities, despite already owning the finished lore, and despite the fact that at the time DDI content had shrunk a lot, leaving large room for this to be published.
Not to mention that the added content would have open so many plotlines about Eilistraeens and Vhaerunites trying to rebuild in this new world, so many angles about the drow to explore, all which is lost (in the published setting, ofc).

[Dostrealt]

[quote="Irennan":19tnixr2]According to the 2e Menzo source, Eilistraee's faith is very limited in that city. Vhaeraun's cult -while still small- is more diffused, especially among young drow, travelers, or people dissatisfied with the stagnation and non-existent growth caused by Lolth's oppression (even tho IMO those could make excellent followers of Eilistraee, as cooperation among drow and growth as a people is among what she fights for). He also has traitor-priestesses who act as spies and infiltrators, while pretending to serve Lolth, aided by their god's magic which shields them against mind probing.[/quote:19tnixr2]

I read a novel that I think featured that spy priestess thing.

I guess that the 4e changes would invalidate all of that. There is a section in the introduction of [i:19tnixr2]Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue[/i:19tnixr2] (which I might refer to as "M:CoI" to save typing) that is called "Lolth is Supreme" that says that the Church of Lolth is the main force in the city. Referring to past eras that section does say: "Although other divine entities have appeared in drow religious rites over the millennia, all are secondary to Lolth and are barely visible in the shadow of the Spider Queen. Beings such as Vhaeraun and Ghaunadaur have adherents in some eras, but few are worshipped with the same devotion - and fear - as Lolth."

I guess the drow that worship Vhaeraun would loose their ability to hide in Lolth's church, when their connection to him was cut. Clerics typically pray for spells once every 24 hours, so if their spells did not instantly vanish at an inconvenient time I suppose they may have sneaked off to pray realised they could not contact Vhaeraun and fled the city.

I'm not sure how Ghaunadaur's worshippers worked in Menzoberranzan, but I guess they would continue to regain spells (in the 4e Era).

A lot of this is unimportant to me as I bought the book to help me design [i:19tnixr2]new[/i:19tnixr2] drow cities (drow cities in spaaaace ). But I guess it would be important to anyone wanting to run a Realms based campaign.

[quote="Irennan":19tnixr2]Eilistraee worship has always been quite secretive and small, even on the surface, because of the heretic hunts run by the Lolthites and the misunderstanding and prejudice -even hate- by people like many humans or elves.[/quote:19tnixr2]

Has anyone here ever compiled a list of locations where Eilistraee and the various other drow deities have churches? Is there a lot in the canon or do people generally have to make most of it up themselves?

[quote="Irennan":19tnixr2]Nonetheless their purpose is to make it so that the drow can finally be free to forge their own future and return to live where they belong to, and do it as a people.

In order to achieve that Eilistraeens have to build relationships with the surface races or somewhat open minded drow (for example, I can see them wanting to operate in Ssamath, even tho there isn't any source that points to that), and we know that they do so by lending their aid and protection to the ones in need, even assisting communities against danger (like the Eilistraeens living in that elven village in one of the WotSQ novels, or the Promenade under Waterdeep), showing that the drow can create, build and flourish, coexist and cooperate with other races. This means that, while having to carefully pick their battles, they do have to make themselves known on the surface and do have to act in the Underdark, by investigating, observing and waiting for opportunities to find drow who are likely to accept Eilistraee's message, or that can be saved from a cruel fate, and to know when it is best to deliver said message. Followers of the Dark Maiden have to show the drow that there is another kind of life, and that there is someone who cares about them, that they have value as individuals.[/quote:19tnixr2]

It seems to me that Eilistraeens need to build an "underground railroad" to locate and save other drow. I'm not sure how close they could get to Menzoberranzan itself. I wonder if they might have outposts in towns close to the city.

[quote="Irennan":19tnixr2]I'm interested in those mentions, as long as they aren't generic 'E/V was X and used to do Y, then LP happened', or 'House Melarn rose to power because LP nonsense', because that is already widely known info.[/quote:19tnixr2]

Well I've already quoted the mention of Vhaeraun on page 4. Lets see what else I can find with a skim.

The Contents (on page 3) might excite you with the promise that "Deities of Other Eras" are on page 21, but the actual section is just a quarter of a page and most of the descriptions of "other deities" are one line descriptions that do not tell you anything new. But this book is partly designed for past-era play, so someone might* use Eilistraee, Ghaunadaur, Kiaransalee, Selvetarm and Vhaeraun with the first three eras ("The Founding", "Sable Years" and "Time of Troubles").

[i:19tnixr2]* = I'm surprised that the authors did not provide 4e players with 4e stats to play clerics of Eilistraee, Kiaransalee, Selvetarm and Vhaeraun in those earlier eras. Without those stats it is a lot less easy to play a PC cleric. I don't know the 4e rules, so maybe they got rid of clerical domains and made all clerics identical or somesuch.[/i:19tnixr2]

For the next two eras there are sub-sections that discuss Lolth taking over.

The "War of the Spider Queen" era section mentions that Lolth turned into a Greater Deity and began exterminating the deities she saw as her rivals (more information and a mention of Eilistraee is on page 12 of the book). I'm not sure I understand why she would do this to be honest, instead of just gain more dominance over the other drow gods, but I think that the "War of the Spider Queen" era may be of [i:19tnixr2]some[/i:19tnixr2] interest to someone who has played D&D in the 3rd Edition Era.

"The Spellplague" era section says that Lolth is the sole drow deity, but says that Ghaunadaur escaped her and established himself as an independent deity.

Moving on I see an organisation called "Jaezred Chaulssin" on pages 68-71, which used to have some sort of association with Vhaeraun. Vhaeraun is really only mentioned by his absense causing the group a major setback in their quest to help the drow throw off Lolth's domination. (It took them a year to rebuild their strength.) I don't know how much new stuff about Jaezred Chaulssin is in the book (vs old books). I see some posts about Jaezred Chaulssin, but not an actual thread about them. If you want to talk about them, you could start up a new thread and we could compare notes.

I think I saw something else before, but I can't find it now. If I find anything else later, I'll write another post about it in this thread.

[quote="Irennan":19tnixr2]Since you don't own the older tomes, I get what you mean. However between Drow of the Underdark 2e, Menzoberranzan 2e, Demihuman Deities 2e, Faiths and Pantheons 3e, we have a lot of info about the [i:19tnixr2]whole[/i:19tnixr2] drow pantheon, Menzo and the drow in general, that a book meant as an introduction to the Underdark (like Menzo 4e is) and whose content appears to largely come from those sources (which makes it quite useful for 2e 3e era, if you don't already own old material), can't really improve. The only significant new lore that I've seen reported by people to be there is the Demonweave thingy, a RSE that WotC proceeded to drop and not develop further (except in the organized encounters, where a bunch of adventurers aided by Mystra defeat her). There is the new house rankings, but I don't see it as enough to warrant buying the book, especially given the detail about houses and their relations that you can find in the 2e Menzo source (especially if you play before or during the 1370s, where the new ranking can't be applied).[/quote:19tnixr2]

I do own [i:19tnixr2]Faiths and Pantheons[/i:19tnixr2]. I got that fairly recently. And I nearly picked up a copy of Demihuman Deities a while back. I've also got the 3e [i:19tnixr2]Underdark[/i:19tnixr2] hardback. I really picked up the book looking for a description of the city (as I already knew about the Spellplague).

I did see the section about the Demonweave. I thought it was fairly interesting, although not having read the novels, I'm not sure of all of the context. From my point of view it is a "far future" thing, so of limited use. But I suppose I could have an asteroid covered by a Demonweave in part of Realmspace in an earlier era.

The house details in the new book seem fairly useful. If I could access the Menzoberranzan boxed set for the same price I paid for this book, I probably would have gone for that instead. (I was already told elsewhere - by people who probably didn't own the 4e version - that the boxed set would be a better thing to buy.) But I figure that all the houses mentioned in the new book, must have existed in some form in earlier eras. There is even a chart, on page 31, that shows the top 20 houses in the Sable Years (1297 and 1328 DR), Time of Troubles (1358 DR), War of the Spider Queen (1372 DR) and Spellplague/Demonweave (1480 DR). The table shows which houses rise in rank, fall in rank, stay at the same rank or cease to exist.

[quote="Irennan":19tnixr2]Now adding the Eilistraee/Vhaeraun faction, expanding and try to give at least [i:19tnixr2]some[/i:19tnixr2] little sense to the events in LP (which make very little, especially in relation to what Eilistraee's goal is), adding plot hooks and connecting the Underdark to the Feydark, would have been something actually new and refreshing. But no, WotC even refused to publish it as DDI content, despite the popularity of the two deities, despite already owning the finished lore, and despite the fact that at the time DDI content had shrunk a lot, leaving large room for this to be published.
Not to mention that the added content would have open so many plotlines about Eilistraeens and Vhaerunites trying to rebuild in this new world, so many angles about the drow to explore, all which is lost (in the published setting, ofc).[/quote:19tnixr2]

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "LP" so can't quite understand this part of what you wrote. But I did read the posts in this thread and saw what you and Eric were talking about. I think that is regrettable, but what is done is done.

I would rather talk about what [i:19tnixr2]did[/i:19tnixr2] make it into the book and what may parts of this book may be things that were not in the old Menzoberranzan boxed set.

There are 46 pages in the chapter about Drow Factions, 21 pages in the chapter about the City of Spiders and 12 pages in the chapter about The Northdark. I'm guessing that some of that is duplicated from what was there before, but there is a chance that some of it is new.

If [i:19tnixr2]some[/i:19tnixr2] of this content is new and is useful to drow fans, it [i:19tnixr2]might[/i:19tnixr2] be worth them picking up a cheap copy to go with their other stuff.

[Irennan]

[quote="Dostrealt":22drx15f][quote="Irennan":22drx15f]According to the 2e Menzo source, Eilistraee's faith is very limited in that city. Vhaeraun's cult -while still small- is more diffused, especially among young drow, travelers, or people dissatisfied with the stagnation and non-existent growth caused by Lolth's oppression (even tho IMO those could make excellent followers of Eilistraee, as cooperation among drow and growth as a people is among what she fights for). He also has traitor-priestesses who act as spies and infiltrators, while pretending to serve Lolth, aided by their god's magic which shields them against mind probing.[/quote:22drx15f]

I read a novel that I think featured that spy priestess thing. [/quote:22drx15f]

Starlights and Shadows trilogy, by Elaine?




[quote:22drx15f][quote="Irennan":22drx15f]Eilistraee worship has always been quite secretive and small, even on the surface, because of the heretic hunts run by the Lolthites and the misunderstanding and prejudice -even hate- by people like many humans or elves.[/quote:22drx15f]

Has anyone here ever compiled a list of locations where Eilistraee and the various other drow deities have churches? Is there a lot in the canon or do people generally have to make most of it up themselves?[/quote:22drx15f]

This is lore about Eilistraee's areas of influence in the Realms:

[quote:22drx15f]
[b:22drx15f]Major Centers of Worship[/b:22drx15f]:

[b:22drx15f]Miyeritar and Twisted Tower[/b:22drx15f]
Before the elven Crown Wars, Eilisrraee's faith was strong in Miyeritar, and she had small numbers of faithful in Ilythiir and the other elven realms of the time. The Dark Disaster, unleashed during the Third Crown War, transformed Miyeritar into the blasted wasteland now known as the High Moor and dealt a devastating blow to the ranks of the Dark Maiden's followers. When the Ilythiiri were transformed into the drow and banished from the sunlit lands at the end of the Fourth Crown War some five hundred years later, Eilistraee's church effectively collapsed and was not reformed for millennia.

A few ancient, sacred sites of power built before the Crown Wars survive in the Misty Forest, along the borders of the High Moor, and in the Shar, scattered across the onceverdant savannah.

In the Year of Shadows Fleeting (-331 DR), the drow of the Twisted Tower fell to the armies of Cormanthyr and Rystal Wood was left in the hands of good-aligned dark elf allies. Within a century, the Tower of the Dark Moon was Eilistraee's greatest temple in the Realms. The Dark Maiden's temple fell once again to the drow beneath Cormanthyr in the Year of the Apparition (190 DR) and survives today as Shadowdale's primary redoubt where it is known by its original name, the Twisted Tower. All that remains of the Dark Maiden's legacy is the swirl of Eilistraee's moonfire that envelops any follower of Eilistraee who mentions her name within the once-sacred halls.

[b:22drx15f]The Promenade[/b:22drx15f]
The Promenade of the Dark Maiden, also known as Eilistraee's Promenade or simply the Promenade, occupies a large ruined city located to the east and north of the lawless, subterranean city of Skullport on the third level of Undermountain deep beneath Waterdeep, the City of Splendors. Of the four major caverns that comprise the temple, one cavern contains many two- and three-story buildings that serve as living quarters for the faithful; another cavern-the Cavern of Song-serves as open space and as an amphitheatre for the hymns of the Dark Maiden's worshipers; the third cavern serves the priests as living quarters; and the fourth cavern houses guards' barracks, storehouses, armouries, and living quarters. A large side cavern leads off from the Cavern of Song to Eilistraee's Mound, site of a great statue of the Dark Maiden hewn from a jagged mound of rock. Adjoining the main temple is the Hall of Healing-once a temple of Moander that was destroyed by an unknown band of adventurers in the service of Tyr long ago- which serves as a sick nursery for the care and tending of the temple's wounded as well as those unfortunates who suffered from the dangers of the Under Halls and were rescued by the Dark Ladies. A fixed one-way teleport spot from the sixth level of Halastar's Halls delivers adventurers and an infrequent monster to the northwestern corner passage north of the Hall of Healing itself. Priests of the Promenade heal any who come to the Hall, offering the hand of friendship oft denied to those of the Shunned Races.

Many races live among the community of faithful, and their numbers are drawn from escaped slaves, former adventurers, and the Chosen of Eilistraee, as the dark elven priests are known. Prominent individuals resident in the Promenade include: Qilue Veladom, High Priest of the Promenade, Chosen of the Chosen, and Chosen of Mystra (see Seven Sisters and Heroes' Lorebook for additional details on the least-known of the Seven Sisters); Elkantar Iluim, Right Hand of the Lady; Arrikett Uruth, Hand of the Protectors; Iljrene Ahbruyn, Hand of the Protectors. The Protectors of the Song, who wield the temple's sacred singing swords, serve as the temple's guards. Their ranks include 24 drow (nine females), 9 dwarves, 27 humans (12 females), and 4 halflings.

Daily activities in the temple include food-growing, temple building chores, patrolling the temple caverns and passages, and practicing diplomacy beyond the immediate temple area.

The Chosen of Eilistraee work tirelessly to further the Lady's aims toward the peaceful coexistence of drow with other races of the Realms and to fulfill her commandments about preventing the return of Ghaunadaur.

Centuries ago, Eilistraee appeared to Qilue Veladorn and commanded the young dark elf and her playmates from part of the now-vanished drow settlement of Buiyrandyn-a small, poor gathering of drow families too small to be considered a city-to take up the singing swords provided by the Dark Maiden and destroy the Pit of Ghaunadaur. The Pit was a mile-deep shaft whose upper terminus opened into the third level of Halasters Halls. After a great battle that resulted in the destruction of an avatar of the Elder Eye as well as the most of its slithering, oozing, and creeping worshipers, the Pit was filled with rubble and the caverns around its opening collapsed. (The rubble-filled Pit of Ghaunadaur is located in the area north of Skull-port and west of Eilistraee's Promenade. The only remaining access to the rubble-filled Pit is via a long, twisting staircase capped by Eilistraee's Mound.) Qilue and the rest of the Chosen of Eilistraee then took up responsibility for patrolling the region in armed, vigilant tours mockingly referred to as promenades by other inhabitants of the area.

In the years since their great victory, the number of battles the Dark Ladies have been forced to fight-particularly with the minions of Ghaunadaur-has continued to increase. After centuries of conflict, the Chosen began construction on a temple complex where they could receive the guidance and aid of their goddess late in the Year of the Harp (1355 DR). Although construction continues, the temple was largely completed and habitable by the end of the Year of the Prince (1357 DR). Since that time, the Chosen of Eilistraee have continued to patrol the surrounding tunnels of Halaster's Halls, but with the added security of a fortified redoubt to which they can retreat when prrudent. In the spring of the Year of Maidends (1361 DR), the Dark Maidens participated in a daring raid of a slave ship berthed in Skullport that resulted in the death of the deep dragon Pharx and the destruction of the Dragon’s Horde consortium, a merchant band led by a priest of Vhaeraun. Several years later in the Year of the Banner (1368), the Promenade came under attack by Ghau-nadaur's cultists who led a full-scale assault on the temple that lasted for several months before the Elder Eye's followers were driven off.

[b:22drx15f]Other Temples[/b:22drx15f]
Above ground temples of Eilistraee are known to exist in the Moonwood north of the village of Quaervarr and at the northern end of the Velarwood in Harrowdale. The Mouth of Song, as the former temple is known, is located in a cavemouth beneath a treeless hill-atop which the dark elven priests and a few halfelven and elven faithful from Silverymoon dance in a great ring on moonlit nights-a day's travel north of Quaervarr. The Shadowtop Glade, as the latter temple is known, is located in a series of caves that line both sides of a steep-sided overgrown gully dominated by a grove of towering shadowtop trees. Dark elven priests of the temple armed with enchanted silver swords and moon-worshiping lycanthropes from the nearby Howling Hill join together to conduct sacred hunts to Eilistraee and Selune when the moon is full. Smaller shrines of the Dark Maiden have been spotted in the Misty Forest, the High Forest (where the Dark Ladies are led by Ysolde Veladorn, daughter of Qilue), the Forest of Shadows, the Lake Sember region, the Grey Forest, the Forest of Lethyr, the Yuirwood, and the Chondalwood. Hidden temples of Eilistraee may exist in the hearts of such forests as well. Temples of the Dark Maiden are conspicuously absent on Evermeet, the Green Isle, despite the recent rapprochement engendered by the dark elven ambassador, Lady Karsel'lyn Lylyl-Lytherraias.[/quote:22drx15f]

She also has worship in Ravenbluff (a temple in the city, not hidden but public to everyone who lives there).



[quote:22drx15f][quote="Irennan":22drx15f]Nonetheless their purpose is to make it so that the drow can finally be free to forge their own future and return to live where they belong to, and do it as a people.

In order to achieve that Eilistraeens have to build relationships with the surface races or somewhat open minded drow (for example, I can see them wanting to operate in Ssamath, even tho there isn't any source that points to that), and we know that they do so by lending their aid and protection to the ones in need, even assisting communities against danger (like the Eilistraeens living in that elven village in one of the WotSQ novels, or the Promenade under Waterdeep), showing that the drow can create, build and flourish, coexist and cooperate with other races. This means that, while having to carefully pick their battles, they do have to make themselves known on the surface and do have to act in the Underdark, by investigating, observing and waiting for opportunities to find drow who are likely to accept Eilistraee's message, or that can be saved from a cruel fate, and to know when it is best to deliver said message. Followers of the Dark Maiden have to show the drow that there is another kind of life, and that there is someone who cares about them, that they have value as individuals.[/quote:22drx15f]

It seems to me that Eilistraeens need to build an "underground railroad" to locate and save other drow. I'm not sure how close they could get to Menzoberranzan itself. I wonder if they might have outposts in towns close to the city.[/quote:22drx15f]

Yes they totally need to do that, but -AFAIK- WotC never cared to put out material about this kind of efforts on the Eilistraeen's side.


[quote:22drx15f]

The "War of the Spider Queen" era section mentions that Lolth turned into a Greater Deity and began exterminating the deities she saw as her rivals (more information and a mention of Eilistraee is on page 12 of the book). I'm not sure I understand why she would do this to be honest, instead of just gain more dominance over the other drow gods[/quote:22drx15f]

All the WotSQ and LP (Lady Penitent) books were written with a single goal in mind -remove the Dark Seldarine from the canonical Realms-, and they did not add any depth or fitting development to the story of the drow in the Realms. Many deities acted out of character and did very stupid or nonsensical things. Lolth not acting to subdue and dominate her children and even using them against Corellon is one of those. Heck the Silence itself is extremely stupid and was only successful because plot armor.

The whole Eilistraee crusade to slay the evil is another one. I mean, the Dark Dancer forging some all-powerful sword capable of slaying everything but Ao, losing it, then retrieving and using it to send a couple of random followers to risk their life (and most likely die) trying to kill Lolth, and all of this while not even joining them in battle?

Besides being a pretty stupid move (sending a newly converted drow to kill a goddess, a paranoid one with tons of contingencies and capable of reading mind. And expecting her to do this in a... swordfight??), 'slay the evil' to solve stuff is not Eilistraee at all. She should have tried to establish a presence in drow cities (like Vhaerunite did), and use the unstable situation and state of unhappiness and desire for a better life to open their eyes about the reality of their situations and deliver her message. Helping Maerymydra against the Fire Giants that razed it would have been a very fitting and cool development, for example. Killing Lolth is not magically going to remove millennia of brainwashing and is only going to cause a bloodbath due to all the chaos and infight that it would bring (not to mention other races taking action and trying to destroy drow presence in the underdark, as it would have happened for Menzo if lolth hadn't come back at the last moment to stop it).

That said, is the mention of Eilistraee simply about her defeat or does it give other kind of info?


[quote:22drx15f]
[quote="Irennan":22drx15f]Since you don't own the older tomes, I get what you mean. However between Drow of the Underdark 2e, Menzoberranzan 2e, Demihuman Deities 2e, Faiths and Pantheons 3e, we have a lot of info about the [i:22drx15f]whole[/i:22drx15f] drow pantheon, Menzo and the drow in general, that a book meant as an introduction to the Underdark (like Menzo 4e is) and whose content appears to largely come from those sources (which makes it quite useful for 2e 3e era, if you don't already own old material), can't really improve. The only significant new lore that I've seen reported by people to be there is the Demonweave thingy, a RSE that WotC proceeded to drop and not develop further (except in the organized encounters, where a bunch of adventurers aided by Mystra defeat her). There is the new house rankings, but I don't see it as enough to warrant buying the book, especially given the detail about houses and their relations that you can find in the 2e Menzo source (especially if you play before or during the 1370s, where the new ranking can't be applied).[/quote:22drx15f]

I do own [i:22drx15f]Faiths and Pantheons[/i:22drx15f]. I got that fairly recently. And I nearly picked up a copy of Demihuman Deities a while back. I've also got the 3e [i:22drx15f]Underdark[/i:22drx15f] hardback. I really picked up the book looking for a description of the city (as I already knew about the Spellplague).

I did see the section about the Demonweave. I thought it was fairly interesting, although not having read the novels, I'm not sure of all of the context. From my point of view it is a "far future" thing, so of limited use. But I suppose I could have an asteroid covered by a Demonweave in part of Realmspace in an earlier era.

The house details in the new book seem fairly useful. If I could access the Menzoberranzan boxed set for the same price I paid for this book, I probably would have gone for that instead. (I was already told elsewhere - by people who probably didn't own the 4e version - that the boxed set would be a better thing to buy.) But I figure that all the houses mentioned in the new book, must have existed in some form in earlier eras. There is even a chart, on page 31, that shows the top 20 houses in the Sable Years (1297 and 1328 DR), Time of Troubles (1358 DR), War of the Spider Queen (1372 DR) and Spellplague/Demonweave (1480 DR). The table shows which houses rise in rank, fall in rank, stay at the same rank or cease to exist.

[quite][quote="Irennan":22drx15f]Now adding the Eilistraee/Vhaeraun faction, expanding and try to give at least [i:22drx15f]some[/i:22drx15f] little sense to the events in LP (which make very little, especially in relation to what Eilistraee's goal is), adding plot hooks and connecting the Underdark to the Feydark, would have been something actually new and refreshing. But no, WotC even refused to publish it as DDI content, despite the popularity of the two deities, despite already owning the finished lore, and despite the fact that at the time DDI content had shrunk a lot, leaving large room for this to be published.
Not to mention that the added content would have open so many plotlines about Eilistraeens and Vhaerunites trying to rebuild in this new world, so many angles about the drow to explore, all which is lost (in the published setting, ofc).[/quote:22drx15f]

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "LP" so can't quite understand this part of what you wrote. But I did read the posts in this thread and saw what you and Eric were talking about. I think that is regrettable, but what is done is done.

I would rather talk about what [i:22drx15f]did[/i:22drx15f] make it into the book and what may parts of this book may be things that were not in the old Menzoberranzan boxed set.

There are 46 pages in the chapter about Drow Factions, 21 pages in the chapter about the City of Spiders and 12 pages in the chapter about The Northdark. I'm guessing that some of that is duplicated from what was there before, but there is a chance that some of it is new.[/quote:22drx15f]

Well i've heard (read, actually) from people that own the book that the only real new info are about the events that happened in the later ears (WotSQ/Spellplague) and that most of the info about places/houses is rehashed lore. What I mean is that the lore about X house is enemy to Y in XXXX year is not really useful for world building (anyone can easily make up that kind of stuff) and that a couple useful paragraphs are not really worth a purchase. However you can't completely blame them, a book covering an already covered area is not going to contain that much new lore. Much of the old lore -like history, geography, and some prominent NPCs- is still going to be the same. What I blame them for is refusing to add some of the actually new lore.

[Bhaern Quel]

[quote="Dostrealt":fipdlbb7]
I'm not quite sure what you mean by "LP" so can't quite understand this part of what you wrote. [/quote:fipdlbb7]

LP refers to the novel/book series Lady Penitent, the trilogy Forgotten Realms series by Lisa Smedman that killed all the other Drow deities. Why she got the job I do not understand, however she got the job.

[Dostrealt]

[quote="Irennan":w3d2gfd0][quote="Dostrealt":w3d2gfd0][quote="Irennan":w3d2gfd0]According to the 2e Menzo source, Eilistraee's faith is very limited in that city. Vhaeraun's cult -while still small- is more diffused, especially among young drow, travelers, or people dissatisfied with the stagnation and non-existent growth caused by Lolth's oppression (even tho IMO those could make excellent followers of Eilistraee, as cooperation among drow and growth as a people is among what she fights for). He also has traitor-priestesses who act as spies and infiltrators, while pretending to serve Lolth, aided by their god's magic which shields them against mind probing.[/quote:w3d2gfd0]

I read a novel that I think featured that spy priestess thing.[/quote:w3d2gfd0]

Starlights and Shadows trilogy, by Elaine?[/quote:w3d2gfd0]

[i:w3d2gfd0]Tangled Webs[/i:w3d2gfd0]. I'm not sure if it is part of a trilogy. I don't have a very large number of Forgotten Realms novels. I find the novels for the setting a bit overwhelming (compared to other D&D worlds with novels) as there are so many of them. Dragonlance is a bit overwhelming too. I've read all the Spelljammer novels years back (and was impressed with Elaine Cunningham's writing). I've been trying to tackle more manageable novel lines. I've got most of the (good) Greyhawk novels. I've even got all of the DragonStrike novels. I've read the Maztica trilogy, as they deal with a FR subsetting rather than all of Faerun. I might try to get a list of all the Underdark novels at some point and read those. (Maybe I should start a thread for drow novels, if there is not already one for them.)

[quote="Irennan":w3d2gfd0][quote="Dostrealt":w3d2gfd0][quote="Irennan":w3d2gfd0]Eilistraee worship has always been quite secretive and small, even on the surface, because of the heretic hunts run by the Lolthites and the misunderstanding and prejudice -even hate- by people like many humans or elves.[/quote:w3d2gfd0]

Has anyone here ever compiled a list of locations where Eilistraee and the various other drow deities have churches? Is there a lot in the canon or do people generally have to make most of it up themselves?[/quote:w3d2gfd0]

This is lore about Eilistraee's areas of influence in the Realms:

[quote:w3d2gfd0][b:w3d2gfd0]Major Centers of Worship[/b:w3d2gfd0]:

[b:w3d2gfd0]Miyeritar and Twisted Tower[/b:w3d2gfd0]
Before the elven Crown Wars, Eilisrraee's faith was strong in Miyeritar, and she had small numbers of faithful in Ilythiir and the other elven realms of the time. The Dark Disaster, unleashed during the Third Crown War, transformed Miyeritar into the blasted wasteland now known as the High Moor and dealt a devastating blow to the ranks of the Dark Maiden's followers. When the Ilythiiri were transformed into the drow and banished from the sunlit lands at the end of the Fourth Crown War some five hundred years later, Eilistraee's church effectively collapsed and was not reformed for millennia.

A few ancient, sacred sites of power built before the Crown Wars survive in the Misty Forest, along the borders of the High Moor, and in the Shar, scattered across the onceverdant savannah.

In the Year of Shadows Fleeting (-331 DR), the drow of the Twisted Tower fell to the armies of Cormanthyr and Rystal Wood was left in the hands of good-aligned dark elf allies. Within a century, the Tower of the Dark Moon was Eilistraee's greatest temple in the Realms. The Dark Maiden's temple fell once again to the drow beneath Cormanthyr in the Year of the Apparition (190 DR) and survives today as Shadowdale's primary redoubt where it is known by its original name, the Twisted Tower. All that remains of the Dark Maiden's legacy is the swirl of Eilistraee's moonfire that envelops any follower of Eilistraee who mentions her name within the once-sacred halls.[/quote:w3d2gfd0][/quote:w3d2gfd0]

Great! Where are you quoting this from? Is it a thread on these forums or one of the TSR products?

These sound really interesting as they hail from a time when Eilistraee was worshipped in her original form. Are there any maps or pictures of any of the sites of power of the Twisted Tower?

[quote="Irennan":w3d2gfd0][quote:w3d2gfd0][b:w3d2gfd0]The Promenade[/b:w3d2gfd0]
The Promenade of the Dark Maiden, also known as Eilistraee's Promenade or simply the Promenade, occupies a large ruined city located to the east and north of the lawless, subterranean city of Skullport on the third level of Undermountain deep beneath Waterdeep, the City of Splendors. Of the four major caverns that comprise the temple, one cavern contains many two- and three-story buildings that serve as living quarters for the faithful; another cavern-the Cavern of Song-serves as open space and as an amphitheatre for the hymns of the Dark Maiden's worshipers; the third cavern serves the priests as living quarters; and the fourth cavern houses guards' barracks, storehouses, armouries, and living quarters. A large side cavern leads off from the Cavern of Song to Eilistraee's Mound, site of a great statue of the Dark Maiden hewn from a jagged mound of rock. Adjoining the main temple is the Hall of Healing-once a temple of Moander that was destroyed by an unknown band of adventurers in the service of Tyr long ago- which serves as a sick nursery for the care and tending of the temple's wounded as well as those unfortunates who suffered from the dangers of the Under Halls and were rescued by the Dark Ladies. A fixed one-way teleport spot from the sixth level of Halastar's Halls delivers adventurers and an infrequent monster to the northwestern corner passage north of the Hall of Healing itself. Priests of the Promenade heal any who come to the Hall, offering the hand of friendship oft denied to those of the Shunned Races.

Many races live among the community of faithful, and their numbers are drawn from escaped slaves, former adventurers, and the Chosen of Eilistraee, as the dark elven priests are known. Prominent individuals resident in the Promenade include: Qilue Veladom, High Priest of the Promenade, Chosen of the Chosen, and Chosen of Mystra (see Seven Sisters and Heroes' Lorebook for additional details on the least-known of the Seven Sisters); Elkantar Iluim, Right Hand of the Lady; Arrikett Uruth, Hand of the Protectors; Iljrene Ahbruyn, Hand of the Protectors. The Protectors of the Song, who wield the temple's sacred singing swords, serve as the temple's guards. Their ranks include 24 drow (nine females), 9 dwarves, 27 humans (12 females), and 4 halflings.

Daily activities in the temple include food-growing, temple building chores, patrolling the temple caverns and passages, and practicing diplomacy beyond the immediate temple area.

The Chosen of Eilistraee work tirelessly to further the Lady's aims toward the peaceful coexistence of drow with other races of the Realms and to fulfill her commandments about preventing the return of Ghaunadaur.

Centuries ago, Eilistraee appeared to Qilue Veladorn and commanded the young dark elf and her playmates from part of the now-vanished drow settlement of Buiyrandyn-a small, poor gathering of drow families too small to be considered a city-to take up the singing swords provided by the Dark Maiden and destroy the Pit of Ghaunadaur. The Pit was a mile-deep shaft whose upper terminus opened into the third level of Halasters Halls. After a great battle that resulted in the destruction of an avatar of the Elder Eye as well as the most of its slithering, oozing, and creeping worshipers, the Pit was filled with rubble and the caverns around its opening collapsed. (The rubble-filled Pit of Ghaunadaur is located in the area north of Skull-port and west of Eilistraee's Promenade. The only remaining access to the rubble-filled Pit is via a long, twisting staircase capped by Eilistraee's Mound.) Qilue and the rest of the Chosen of Eilistraee then took up responsibility for patrolling the region in armed, vigilant tours mockingly referred to as promenades by other inhabitants of the area.

In the years since their great victory, the number of battles the Dark Ladies have been forced to fight-particularly with the minions of Ghaunadaur-has continued to increase. After centuries of conflict, the Chosen began construction on a temple complex where they could receive the guidance and aid of their goddess late in the Year of the Harp (1355 DR). Although construction continues, the temple was largely completed and habitable by the end of the Year of the Prince (1357 DR). Since that time, the Chosen of Eilistraee have continued to patrol the surrounding tunnels of Halaster's Halls, but with the added security of a fortified redoubt to which they can retreat when prrudent. In the spring of the Year of Maidends (1361 DR), the Dark Maidens participated in a daring raid of a slave ship berthed in Skullport that resulted in the death of the deep dragon Pharx and the destruction of the Dragon’s Horde consortium, a merchant band led by a priest of Vhaeraun. Several years later in the Year of the Banner (1368), the Promenade came under attack by Ghau-nadaur's cultists who led a full-scale assault on the temple that lasted for several months before the Elder Eye's followers were driven off.[/quote:w3d2gfd0][/quote:w3d2gfd0]

Wow. That stuff sounds like it has great detail. And the link to Undermountain, means there is a chance that worshippers of Eilistraee may have managed to make it over to Stardock (an asteroid in The Tears of Selune connected to Undermountain) at some point in the past.

I guess I should increase my efforts to get a copy of [i:w3d2gfd0]Skullport[/i:w3d2gfd0].

There is a 4e book called [i:w3d2gfd0]Halls of Undermountain[/i:w3d2gfd0]. I guess it will have any Eilistraee references removed (and will be as far into the future as [i:w3d2gfd0]Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue[/i:w3d2gfd0], but maybe there are a few useful things in it. Maybe it might be worth picking it up if it is on sale for a low price.

[quote="Irennan":w3d2gfd0][quote:w3d2gfd0][b:w3d2gfd0]Other Temples[/b:w3d2gfd0]
Above ground temples of Eilistraee are known to exist in the Moonwood north of the village of Quaervarr and at the northern end of the Velarwood in Harrowdale. The Mouth of Song, as the former temple is known, is located in a cavemouth beneath a treeless hill-atop which the dark elven priests and a few halfelven and elven faithful from Silverymoon dance in a great ring on moonlit nights-a day's travel north of Quaervarr. The Shadowtop Glade, as the latter temple is known, is located in a series of caves that line both sides of a steep-sided overgrown gully dominated by a grove of towering shadowtop trees. Dark elven priests of the temple armed with enchanted silver swords and moon-worshiping lycanthropes from the nearby Howling Hill join together to conduct sacred hunts to Eilistraee and Selune when the moon is full. Smaller shrines of the Dark Maiden have been spotted in the Misty Forest, the High Forest (where the Dark Ladies are led by Ysolde Veladorn, daughter of Qilue), the Forest of Shadows, the Lake Sember region, the Grey Forest, the Forest of Lethyr, the Yuirwood, and the Chondalwood. Hidden temples of Eilistraee may exist in the hearts of such forests as well. Temples of the Dark Maiden are conspicuously absent on Evermeet, the Green Isle, despite the recent rapprochement engendered by the dark elven ambassador, Lady Karsel'lyn Lylyl-Lytherraias.[/quote:w3d2gfd0][/quote:w3d2gfd0]

Moon-worshipping lycanthropes sound interesting. I take it these are good lycanthropes, to go with Selune's alignment. (I'm still trying to work out what happens to lycanthropes if they actually travel to a moon (in this case Selune). I guess they would have a clear day/night cycle to follow there.

[quote="Irennan":w3d2gfd0]She also has worship in Ravenbluff (a temple in the city, not hidden but public to everyone who lives there).[/quote:w3d2gfd0]

I do not think I have got anything on Ravensbluff yet. Are there any sources you would recommend?

[quote="Irennan":w3d2gfd0][quote="Dostrealt":w3d2gfd0][quote="Irennan":w3d2gfd0]Nonetheless their purpose is to make it so that the drow can finally be free to forge their own future and return to live where they belong to, and do it as a people.

In order to achieve that Eilistraeens have to build relationships with the surface races or somewhat open minded drow (for example, I can see them wanting to operate in Ssamath, even tho there isn't any source that points to that), and we know that they do so by lending their aid and protection to the ones in need, even assisting communities against danger (like the Eilistraeens living in that elven village in one of the WotSQ novels, or the Promenade under Waterdeep), showing that the drow can create, build and flourish, coexist and cooperate with other races. This means that, while having to carefully pick their battles, they do have to make themselves known on the surface and do have to act in the Underdark, by investigating, observing and waiting for opportunities to find drow who are likely to accept Eilistraee's message, or that can be saved from a cruel fate, and to know when it is best to deliver said message. Followers of the Dark Maiden have to show the drow that there is another kind of life, and that there is someone who cares about them, that they have value as individuals.[/quote:w3d2gfd0]

It seems to me that Eilistraeens need to build an "underground railroad" to locate and save other drow. I'm not sure how close they could get to Menzoberranzan itself. I wonder if they might have outposts in towns close to the city.[/quote:w3d2gfd0]

Yes they totally need to do that, but -AFAIK- WotC never cared to put out material about this kind of efforts on the Eilistraeen's side.[/quote:w3d2gfd0]

I don't know Ssmath. Is it an Underdark location? What books can I read more about it in?

Has anyone ever made any fanon material for Ssmath that includes your suggestion for an Eilistraeen presence?

[quote="Irennan":w3d2gfd0][quote="Dostrealt":w3d2gfd0]The "War of the Spider Queen" era section mentions that Lolth turned into a Greater Deity and began exterminating the deities she saw as her rivals (more information and a mention of Eilistraee is on page 12 of the book). I'm not sure I understand why she would do this to be honest, instead of just gain more dominance over the other drow gods[/quote:w3d2gfd0]

All the WotSQ and LP (Lady Penitent) books were written with a single goal in mind -remove the Dark Seldarine from the canonical Realms-, and they did not add any depth or fitting development to the story of the drow in the Realms. Many deities acted out of character and did very stupid or nonsensical things. Lolth not acting to subdue and dominate her children and even using them against Corellon is one of those. Heck the Silence itself is extremely stupid and was only successful because plot armor.

The whole Eilistraee crusade to slay the evil is another one. I mean, the Dark Dancer forging some all-powerful sword capable of slaying everything but Ao, losing it, then retrieving and using it to send a couple of random followers to risk their life (and most likely die) trying to kill Lolth, and all of this while not even joining them in battle?

Besides being a pretty stupid move (sending a newly converted drow to kill a goddess, a paranoid one with tons of contingencies and capable of reading mind. And expecting her to do this in a... swordfight??), 'slay the evil' to solve stuff is not Eilistraee at all. She should have tried to establish a presence in drow cities (like Vhaerunite did), and use the unstable situation and state of unhappiness and desire for a better life to open their eyes about the reality of their situations and deliver her message. Helping Maerymydra against the Fire Giants that razed it would have been a very fitting and cool development, for example. Killing Lolth is not magically going to remove millennia of brainwashing and is only going to cause a bloodbath due to all the chaos and infight that it would bring (not to mention other races taking action and trying to destroy drow presence in the underdark, as it would have happened for Menzo if lolth hadn't come back at the last moment to stop it).

That said, is the mention of Eilistraee simply about her defeat or does it give other kind of info?[/quote:w3d2gfd0]

They do say that deities are supposed to work in mysterious ways. Maybe Eilistraee's "mistakes" were some sort of plan to trick Lolth into doing something that would free some of the drow.

Maybe they can explain it better later. But, to be honest, this stuff sounds like it is beyond the 3rd Edition Era, so it counts as "a possible future" to me.

<snip>

[quote="Irennan":w3d2gfd0][quote="Dostrealt":w3d2gfd0][quote="Irennan":w3d2gfd0]Now adding the Eilistraee/Vhaeraun faction, expanding and try to give at least [i:w3d2gfd0]some[/i:w3d2gfd0] little sense to the events in LP (which make very little, especially in relation to what Eilistraee's goal is), adding plot hooks and connecting the Underdark to the Feydark, would have been something actually new and refreshing. But no, WotC even refused to publish it as DDI content, despite the popularity of the two deities, despite already owning the finished lore, and despite the fact that at the time DDI content had shrunk a lot, leaving large room for this to be published.
Not to mention that the added content would have open so many plotlines about Eilistraeens and Vhaerunites trying to rebuild in this new world, so many angles about the drow to explore, all which is lost (in the published setting, ofc).[/quote:w3d2gfd0]

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "LP" so can't quite understand this part of what you wrote. But I did read the posts in this thread and saw what you and Eric were talking about. I think that is regrettable, but what is done is done.

I would rather talk about what [i:w3d2gfd0]did[/i:w3d2gfd0] make it into the book and what may parts of this book may be things that were not in the old Menzoberranzan boxed set.

There are 46 pages in the chapter about Drow Factions, 21 pages in the chapter about the City of Spiders and 12 pages in the chapter about The Northdark. I'm guessing that some of that is duplicated from what was there before, but there is a chance that some of it is new.[/quote:w3d2gfd0]

Well i've heard (read, actually) from people that own the book that the only real new info are about the events that happened in the later ears (WotSQ/Spellplague) and that most of the info about places/houses is rehashed lore. What I mean is that the lore about X house is enemy to Y in XXXX year is not really useful for world building (anyone can easily make up that kind of stuff) and that a couple useful paragraphs are not really worth a purchase. However you can't completely blame them, a book covering an already covered area is not going to contain that much new lore. Much of the old lore -like history, geography, and some prominent NPCs- is still going to be the same. What I blame them for is refusing to add some of the actually new lore.[/quote:w3d2gfd0]

Sure. People can make that stuff up, but we can talk about it, if there is any stuff you or anyone else is interested in.

Back when the 3rd Edition [i:w3d2gfd0]Dragonlance Campaign Setting[/i:w3d2gfd0] came out, I was not sure I wanted to buy 3rd Edition and actually read the book in a book store and took notes!

[quote="Bhaern Quel":w3d2gfd0][quote="Dostrealt":w3d2gfd0]I'm not quite sure what you mean by "LP" so can't quite understand this part of what you wrote. [/quote:w3d2gfd0]

LP refers to the novel/book series Lady Penitent, the trilogy Forgotten Realms series by Lisa Smedman that killed all the other Drow deities. Why she got the job I do not understand, however she got the job.[/quote:w3d2gfd0]

Thanks for this. I've got plenty of other drow/Underdark novels to read, so I don't think I'll be reading the Lady Penitent novels anything soon.

[Irennan]

[quote="Dostrealt":3gtbvieh]

[i:3gtbvieh]Tangled Webs[/i:3gtbvieh]. I'm not sure if it is part of a trilogy. I don't have a very large number of Forgotten Realms novels. I find the novels for the setting a bit overwhelming (compared to other D&D worlds with novels) as there are so many of them. Dragonlance is a bit overwhelming too. I've read all the Spelljammer novels years back (and was impressed with Elaine Cunningham's writing). I've been trying to tackle more manageable novel lines. I've got most of the (good) Greyhawk novels. I've even got all of the DragonStrike novels. I've read the Maztica trilogy, as they deal with a FR subsetting rather than all of Faerun. I might try to get a list of all the Underdark novels at some point and read those. (Maybe I should start a thread for drow novels, if there is not already one for them.)[/quote:3gtbvieh]

Yep, it is the 2nd book in the Starlights and Shadows trilogy. The other two are Daughter of Drow and Windwalker.

[quote:3gtbvieh]

Great! Where are you quoting this from? Is it a thread on these forums or one of the TSR products?

These sound really interesting as they hail from a time when Eilistraee was worshipped in her original form. Are there any maps or pictures of any of the sites of power of the Twisted Tower?
[...]
Wow. That stuff sounds like it has great detail. And the link to Undermountain, means there is a chance that worshippers of Eilistraee may have managed to make it over to Stardock (an asteroid in The Tears of Selune connected to Undermountain) at some point in the past.
[...]
I guess I should increase my efforts to get a copy of [i:3gtbvieh]Skullport[/i:3gtbvieh].

There is a 4e book called [i:3gtbvieh]Halls of Undermountain[/i:3gtbvieh]. I guess it will have any Eilistraee references removed (and will be as far into the future as [i:3gtbvieh]Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue[/i:3gtbvieh], but maybe there are a few useful things in it. Maybe it might be worth picking it up if it is on sale for a low price.

[...]
I do not think I have got anything on Ravensbluff yet. Are there any sources you would recommend?
[/quote:3gtbvieh]

Most of the material about Miyeritar/Twisted Tower comes from Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves (2e) and Lost Empires of Faerun (3e). The Promenade is described in Demihuman deities, in Drow of the Underdark (2e, I'm not sure about this, tho) and in an article called 'If you need help, ask the Drow!' published in Dragon 176.
Other temples are referenced in regional sourcebooks, novels and so on. Raven's bluff has its own (2e) sourcebook.

The lore I posted comes from from a very good project (Northern Journal), and I guess it is the material published about Eilistraee in all those books summarized and put together. [url=http://www.nj-pbem.com/data/Gods/drowgo ... m:3gtbvieh]Eilistraee[/url:3gtbvieh]

[quote="Dostrealt":3gtbvieh]

I don't know Ssmath. Is it an Underdark location? What books can I read more about it in?

Has anyone ever made any fanon material for Ssmath that includes your suggestion for an Eilistraeen presence?[/quote:3gtbvieh]

Ssamath is a open, trading underground drow city where Lolth's clergy has little influence. Mages rule it as a sort of neutral ground: people of any magic-capable (including humans and elves) race can do their things there as long as they don't cause troubles. Eilistraeens and Vhaerunites would clearly value having a presence and a operative base in the Underdark there (In my campaign they are working towards it -among their many other goals), but there's nothing canonical about it. You can read about Ssamath in 3e Underdark.


[quote="Dostrealt":3gtbvieh]The "War of the Spider Queen" era section mentions that Lolth turned into a Greater Deity and began exterminating the deities she saw as her rivals (more information and a mention of Eilistraee is on page 12 of the book). I'm not sure I understand why she would do this to be honest, instead of just gain more dominance over the other drow gods

[quote:3gtbvieh]All the WotSQ and LP (Lady Penitent) books were written with a single goal in mind -remove the Dark Seldarine from the canonical Realms-, and they did not add any depth or fitting development to the story of the drow in the Realms. Many deities acted out of character and did very stupid or nonsensical things. Lolth not acting to subdue and dominate her children and even using them against Corellon is one of those. Heck the Silence itself is extremely stupid and was only successful because plot armor.

The whole Eilistraee crusade to slay the evil is another one. I mean, the Dark Dancer forging some all-powerful sword capable of slaying everything but Ao, losing it, then retrieving and using it to send a couple of random followers to risk their life (and most likely die) trying to kill Lolth, and all of this while not even joining them in battle?

Besides being a pretty stupid move (sending a newly converted drow to kill a goddess, a paranoid one with tons of contingencies and capable of reading mind. And expecting her to do this in a... swordfight??), 'slay the evil' to solve stuff is not Eilistraee at all. She should have tried to establish a presence in drow cities (like Vhaerunite did), and use the unstable situation and state of unhappiness and desire for a better life to open their eyes about the reality of their situations and deliver her message. Helping Maerymydra against the Fire Giants that razed it would have been a very fitting and cool development, for example. Killing Lolth is not magically going to remove millennia of brainwashing and is only going to cause a bloodbath due to all the chaos and infight that it would bring (not to mention other races taking action and trying to destroy drow presence in the underdark, as it would have happened for Menzo if lolth hadn't come back at the last moment to stop it).

That said, is the mention of Eilistraee simply about her defeat or does it give other kind of info?[/quote:3gtbvieh]

They do say that deities are supposed to work in mysterious ways. Maybe Eilistraee's "mistakes" were some sort of plan to trick Lolth into doing something that would free some of the drow.

Maybe they can explain it better later. But, to be honest, this stuff sounds like it is beyond the 3rd Edition Era, so it counts as "a possible future" to me.[/quote:3gtbvieh]

Gods work in mysterious way is (often) pure cheese used to justify when someone screws up. It should make divine actions mysterious and fascinating, but should never ruin the concept of a deity, making (s)he act completely out of character, in a way that has nothing to do and even diminish what (s)he stands for.

You can really tell that Eilistraee's 'mistakes' were a Deus Ex Machina so that they could get rid of her, her drow and their quest for the 4e FR. Even tricking Lolth in making mistakes to free drow could not work as explanation, as 1)Lolth had already made a HUGE mistake (the silence) 2)Eilistraee wants the drow to [i:3gtbvieh]choose[/i:3gtbvieh] to be free, they are not going to be redeemed just because her mother screwed up and she took advantage of that, or because she won a chess game and Ao said that the drow would belong to the winner. That's exactly what they didn't get about the Dark Maiden, one of her most important and meaningful traits which was completely twisted.

[Dostrealt]

[quote="Irennan":2sgkk45y][quote="Dostrealt":2sgkk45y][i:2sgkk45y]Tangled Webs[/i:2sgkk45y]. I'm not sure if it is part of a trilogy. I don't have a very large number of Forgotten Realms novels. I find the novels for the setting a bit overwhelming (compared to other D&D worlds with novels) as there are so many of them. Dragonlance is a bit overwhelming too. I've read all the Spelljammer novels years back (and was impressed with Elaine Cunningham's writing). I've been trying to tackle more manageable novel lines. I've got most of the (good) Greyhawk novels. I've even got all of the DragonStrike novels. I've read the Maztica trilogy, as they deal with a FR subsetting rather than all of Faerun. I might try to get a list of all the Underdark novels at some point and read those. (Maybe I should start a thread for drow novels, if there is not already one for them.)[/quote:2sgkk45y]

Yep, it is the 2nd book in the Starlights and Shadows trilogy. The other two are Daughter of Drow and Windwalker.[/quote:2sgkk45y]

Thanks. I will have to look out for those other two novels.

[quote="Irennan":2sgkk45y][quote="Dostrealt":2sgkk45y]Great! Where are you quoting this from? Is it a thread on these forums or one of the TSR products?

These sound really interesting as they hail from a time when Eilistraee was worshipped in her original form. Are there any maps or pictures of any of the sites of power of the Twisted Tower?
[...]
Wow. That stuff sounds like it has great detail. And the link to Undermountain, means there is a chance that worshippers of Eilistraee may have managed to make it over to Stardock (an asteroid in The Tears of Selune connected to Undermountain) at some point in the past.
[...]
I guess I should increase my efforts to get a copy of [i:2sgkk45y]Skullport[/i:2sgkk45y].

There is a 4e book called [i:2sgkk45y]Halls of Undermountain[/i:2sgkk45y]. I guess it will have any Eilistraee references removed (and will be as far into the future as [i:2sgkk45y]Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue[/i:2sgkk45y], but maybe there are a few useful things in it. Maybe it might be worth picking it up if it is on sale for a low price.

[...]
I do not think I have got anything on Ravensbluff yet. Are there any sources you would recommend?
[/quote:2sgkk45y]

Most of the material about Miyeritar/Twisted Tower comes from Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves (2e) and Lost Empires of Faerun (3e). The Promenade is described in Demihuman deities, in Drow of the Underdark (2e, I'm not sure about this, tho) and in an article called 'If you need help, ask the Drow!' published in Dragon 176.
Other temples are referenced in regional sourcebooks, novels and so on. Raven's bluff has its own (2e) sourcebook.

The lore I posted comes from from a very good project (Northern Journal), and I guess it is the material published about Eilistraee in all those books summarized and put together. [url=http://www.nj-pbem.com/data/Gods/drowgo ... m:2sgkk45y]Eilistraee[/url:2sgkk45y][/quote:2sgkk45y]

I don't have all of those books, but I might be buying some of them.

I think I've seen Northern Journal before, but with a different website.

[quote="Irennan":2sgkk45y][quote="Dostrealt":2sgkk45y]I don't know Ssmath. Is it an Underdark location? What books can I read more about it in?

Has anyone ever made any fanon material for Ssmath that includes your suggestion for an Eilistraeen presence?[/quote:2sgkk45y]

Ssamath is a open, trading underground drow city where Lolth's clergy has little influence. Mages rule it as a sort of neutral ground: people of any magic-capable (including humans and elves) race can do their things there as long as they don't cause troubles. Eilistraeens and Vhaerunites would clearly value having a presence and a operative base in the Underdark there (In my campaign they are working towards it -among their many other goals), but there's nothing canonical about it. You can read about Ssamath in 3e Underdark.[/quote:2sgkk45y]

Thanks. I've got that book, so I'll have a look for it.

[quote="Irennan":2sgkk45y]You can really tell that Eilistraee's 'mistakes' were a Deus Ex Machina so that they could get rid of her, her drow and their quest for the 4e FR. Even tricking Lolth in making mistakes to free drow could not work as explanation, as 1)Lolth had already made a HUGE mistake (the silence) 2)Eilistraee wants the drow to [i:2sgkk45y]choose[/i:2sgkk45y] to be free, they are not going to be redeemed just because her mother screwed up and she took advantage of that, or because she won a chess game and Ao said that the drow would belong to the winner. That's exactly what they didn't get about the Dark Maiden, one of her most important and meaningful traits which was completely twisted.[/quote:2sgkk45y]

It won't be too long until we see what The Sundering has to say about this stuff. But I probably won't be catching up with Realms novels in the next few years, so I think I'll hear it all second hand.

[Irennan]

[quote="Dostrealt":1761ahli]

It won't be too long until we see what The Sundering has to say about this stuff. But I probably won't be catching up with Realms novels in the next few years, so I think I'll hear it all second hand.[/quote:1761ahli]

Meh. The Sundering is finished as of now, and it didn't explained anything about the past, it only consisted of changes to bring things how they were, using ''Ao's magic ended the Spellpalgued and now stuff is happening, gods are returning and so on'' as a justification. The only book that really gave explanations was The Godborn (Mask's return), but it was already planned as a sequel to the Twilight War trilogy which set those events in motion (there's also Bhaal return, but the elements need for it were already in place as well).

The Sundering basically is the ultimate deus ex machina, it was even kinda advertised as that -the RSE the end them all and restore the Realms to their past glory, or something along those lines- it isn't meant to give explanations, but to correct screwups.

I don't see why it would bring reasons for Eilistraee acting out of character, and quite honestly explaining something like the Dark Maiden sending a couple followers in a suicide holy crusade-like mission, or turning her back, abandoning all the drow who still needed her and giving everything she fights for up just to get her people a pass to VIP paradise Arvandor and a [i:1761ahli]forced[/i:1761ahli] race change that made it impossible to them to go on with their (and her) quest, would require unhealthy levels of cheese.
I would prefer if this kind of lore was glossed over and they simply returned her, just like it happened with other lore that didn't make any sense. Like
Mystra dies once again for the 4562678132th time, killed no one knows how? No explanation about that, they said that she hid in a bear and now is back.
Helm died because a divine love triangle(!!!)? Again no explanation, he was a goat and now is back.

I don't like those solutions, but I can see why they didn't want to go more in depth: the 5e changes to the Realms are a kind of masked soft reboot (you can tell it, if you look at them) there's no need to drag new material down with the bad lore of the past, when you can say 'ok, it happened, it ended, now things are different' and ignore it.

But then again there [i:1761ahli]is[/i:1761ahli] a simple solution (even if only for the events at the end of LP).

They could say that Eilistraee wanted to pull herself out of a divine war that only caused death and suffering to her people, where their lives are nothing but pawns. So she decided to give up her godhood, to continue fighting her battle alongside the drow (and it fits her better IMO). However, since her followers would no longer be able to have her as their goddess, she decided to offer them the opportunity to be allowed in Arvandor (this means that they should change the facts a bit, making it so that the transformation could be accepted or refused i.e. allowing choice as Eilistraee would).

Something as easy as this -already thought and made public by authors and other people- would have Eilistraee's action make sense.

[Dostrealt]

[quote="Irennan":2fokn3kq]But then again there [i:2fokn3kq]is[/i:2fokn3kq] a simple solution (even if only for the events at the end of LP).

They could say that Eilistraee wanted to pull herself out of a divine war that only caused death and suffering to her people, where their lives are nothing but pawns. So she decided to give up her godhood, to continue fighting her battle alongside the drow (and it fits her better IMO). However, since her followers would no longer be able to have her as their goddess, she decided to offer them the opportunity to be allowed in Arvandor (this means that they should change the facts a bit, making it so that the transformation could be accepted or refused i.e. allowing choice as Eilistraee would).

Something as easy as this -already thought and made public by authors and other people- would have Eilistraee's action make sense.[/quote:2fokn3kq]

That makes sense, but it would not really explain why Eilistraee would give a sword to a drow that was not known to be loyal. I guess it could be a loyalty test (with Eilisstraee faking her own death to see what reaction she would get) but if you add in that many hand waves, you could literally take off and fly.

One thing I think is a bit of a shame is that there [i:2fokn3kq]is[/i:2fokn3kq] a rule, both from Spelljammer and Forgotten Realms about bring a god back and it needing to take one year and a day.

If Lolth was able to boot the other drow deities out of Realmspace (rather than kill them) you could have Eilistraee worshipers (or worshippers of other "banished" gods) working to free their gods from some sort of exclusion from Toril.

Eilistraee could maybe leave Realmspace taking the taint with her (allowing some drow to revert to their previous form if they want to) and then sort out things somewhere else (maybe make things better for dead drow that worshipped her in the past and who may be trapped on the wrong Outer Plane because of this taint thing). They could have had a story where a bunch of drow travel into the planes (probably the 4e FR planes) to go fix something that is blocking drow from being what they want to be. It could have been a good opportunity. But it seems they wasted it.

[Irennan]

[quote="Dostrealt":j89s2o7x][quote="Irennan":j89s2o7x]But then again there [i:j89s2o7x]is[/i:j89s2o7x] a simple solution (even if only for the events at the end of LP).

They could say that Eilistraee wanted to pull herself out of a divine war that only caused death and suffering to her people, where their lives are nothing but pawns. So she decided to give up her godhood, to continue fighting her battle alongside the drow (and it fits her better IMO). However, since her followers would no longer be able to have her as their goddess, she decided to offer them the opportunity to be allowed in Arvandor (this means that they should change the facts a bit, making it so that the transformation could be accepted or refused i.e. allowing choice as Eilistraee would).

Something as easy as this -already thought and made public by authors and other people- would have Eilistraee's action make sense.[/quote:j89s2o7x]

That makes sense, but it would not really explain why Eilistraee would give a sword to a drow that was not known to be loyal. I guess it could be a loyalty test (with Eilisstraee faking her own death to see what reaction she would get) but if you add in that many hand waves, you could literally take off and fly.

One thing I think is a bit of a shame is that there [i:j89s2o7x]is[/i:j89s2o7x] a rule, both from Spelljammer and Forgotten Realms about bring a god back and it needing to take one year and a day.

If Lolth was able to boot the other drow deities out of Realmspace (rather than kill them) you could have Eilistraee worshipers (or worshippers of other "banished" gods) working to free their gods from some sort of exclusion from Toril.

Eilistraee could maybe leave Realmspace taking the taint with her (allowing some drow to revert to their previous form if they want to) and then sort out things somewhere else (maybe make things better for dead drow that worshipped her in the past and who may be trapped on the wrong Outer Plane because of this taint thing). They could have had a story where a bunch of drow travel into the planes (probably the 4e FR planes) to go fix something that is blocking drow from being what they want to be. It could have been a good opportunity. But it seems they wasted it.[/quote:j89s2o7x]

Yeah, it wouldn't explain the WotSQ nonsense. Eilistraee is not about 'killing the ebil', she is about freedom of choice. Tests are another cliché that wouldn't make much sense here, Eilistraee shouldn't test her followers, she needs to show them that she trusts them and loves them (also faking death would be lame of her, she represents so much for her drow, losing her would be a huge blow to their will to go on). Tests sound too much like Lolth. Then again, if they brought her back like this it would be cool: I always liked Eilistraee more like a figure that is close to her people -like in at their side- and as a goddess she can hardly be that.

Also, I dont think that dead drow can be trapped in the wrong outer plane beacuse of the taint (unless they worship the Seldarine) because the [i:j89s2o7x]only[/i:j89s2o7x] thing that the balor blood curse does is banning them from Arvandor (which -frankly- isn't anything vital at all, especially when they have so many other paradises, including Eilistraee's realm).

Yeah it would be cool to have Eilistraeen drow working to re-open realmspace doors to the Dark Dancer (I still prefer her giving up her godhood and starting playing by her own rules as a mortal/archfey/whatever. After all she is forging [i:j89s2o7x]her own path[/i:j89s2o7x]), there are many possibilities for stories that involve the Dark Seldarine coming back to the FR, WotC just has to use them -while possibily glossing over nonsensical, out of character behaviour that so many deities displayed, like they did with Helm-

I hope that Ed's words about a possible Eilistraee's return do refer to that kind of story...

[Dostrealt]

[quote="Irennan":32cky18g]Yeah it would be cool to have Eilistraeen drow working to re-open realmspace doors to the Dark Dancer (I still prefer her giving up her godhood and starting playing by her own rules as a mortal/archfey/whatever. After all she is forging [i:32cky18g]her own path[/i:32cky18g]), there are many possibilities for stories that involve the Dark Seldarine coming back to the FR, WotC just has to use them -while possibily glossing over nonsensical, out of character behaviour that so many deities displayed, like they did with Helm-[/quote:32cky18g]

[url=http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Mystryl:32cky18g]Mystryl[/url:32cky18g] "sacrificed herself" to "save the Weave" and ended up getting replaced by [url=http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Mystra:32cky18g]Mystra[/url:32cky18g]. I'm not sure I would want to see a similar thing happen with Eilistraee.