Jeff Grubb's U is for Underdark

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Jeff Grubb's U is for Underdark

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Has anyone here seen Jeff Grubb's [url=http://grubbstreet.blogspot.co.uk/2014/ ... l:1d0oad8q]U is for Underdark[/url:1d0oad8q] blog entry (which he wrote as part of the [url=http://www.a-to-zchallenge.com/:1d0oad8q]A-Z Blogging challenge[/url:1d0oad8q])?

During the month Jeff Grubb spoke about a number of campaign settings (some of his and some done by other people).

One thing I found interesting was that he said this:

[quote="Jeff Grubb at Grubbstreet":1d0oad8q]The Underdark as a setting is pretty uniform, whether it is in Oerth, the Realms, or the Rock of Bral. Natural features. Rough caverns. Stalactites. This is where the drow and the mind flayer are comfortable, where herds of rothe (miniature musk ox) roam, and fungoid creatures like myconids and various noxious molds hang out.[/quote:1d0oad8q]

I thought that was quite radical, when I first read it (especially the idea that the Underdark on an asteroid was the same as the Underdark below Faerûn or the Flanaess), but I guess that a lot of the environment would be the same. And if drow exist in most of the D&D universe, they should have a similar culture in most places. So I guess it makes sense.

But I find myself wondering about the drow gods. Eilistree and Vhaeraun are supposed to be the children of Corellon Larethian and of Araushnee, but it seems that they are bespoke to Forgotten Realms and ignored in Greyhawk (and other campaign settings).

I know that some people here dislike the changes of the Spellplagued Realms, with the purge of gods being one of the things disliked, but when I look at how drow work in the multiverse, I think this goes against the Underdark being some sort of universal setting.

Given that Forgotten Realms canon specifically states that it was connected to lots of other worlds in the past (and then forgotten) and that the drow were created way back in time (according to most D&D campaign settings) the drow should have been freely moving from portal to portal and should have travelled to many different Underdarks on different worlds. But I'm not sure the D&D settings back up a drow migration that would see them arrive in the Underdark of most worlds.

I wonder if Eilistraee was specificlly excluded from Greyhawk's Underdark, or if the focus on Forgotten Realms products meant that we just did not get an Underoerth hardback that would have shown what her place would be in that setting. I do not see her mentioned in the Living Greyhawk documentation, but those guys were really just restating existing GH canon, rather than building new canon. If WotC had not sidelined Greyhawk to focus on Forgotten Realms, I wonder if Eilistraee would have been added.

I know that Dragonlance does not have drow (and has its deities locked down) so would not expect to see any Eilistraee worshippers on Krynn.

Eberron has a bit of a weird system, where people do not seem to know if the gods exist. They say that all core monsters and races exist on Eberron, so there should be drow cities in the Eberron Underdark, but I have no idea how similar or different they would be to the drow of Faerûn.

Ghostwalk is a funny beast, with a small number of gods. That setting does not really mention an Underdark. A lot of other D&D settings also seem to ignore the Underdark.

In Spelljammer a lot of crystal spheres are seriously under-developed. But there is one called Faeriespace that has all the races (including the drow) believing in some sort of "principle" instead of gods. So I guess they would not know that Eilistraee (or her parents) exist there. There is also a crystal sphere called Clusterspace with restricted gods. I guess they would have drow worshipping one of those gods.

Closer to home, I know there was a drow plotline in Maztica's underdark, with Lolth trying to sneak into that part of the world. But I'm not sure how Eilistraee might fit in there. She was not mentioned in the Maztica trillogy novels.

I don't know if there is an Underdark in Zakhara or Kara-Tur, but I would be interested to know if there are any Arabian or Oriental drow in any RPG products.

Has anyone here had any thoughts about what Eilistraee would be like outside of Faerûn and/or Forgotten Realms?

[b:1d0oad8q]EDIT:[/b:1d0oad8q] Not sure if this should be here or in the [url=viewforum.php?f=6:1d0oad8q]Theological Debate[/url:1d0oad8q] section. Apologies to the moderators if you need to move this.
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Re: Jeff Grubb's U is for Underdark

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As far as I can see, Eilistraee can easily be incorporated in any setting with Lolth-dominated drow, and she would be the same as she is in the Forgotten Realms/Faerun. You could even use places like the Promenade as a main hub with portals to the various Underdarks, allowing for coordinate operations and faster information spreading and better collabroation among drow from the different worlds. But their ideals and their Modus Operandi would be the same, I guess (there would be little differences,for examples in world where drow are far less known or spread than they are in Faerun -Oerth for example, I guess the non-Faerun part of the FR would do too-. This could ease Eilistraee's work of bonding with other races -if we exclude elves, who are as much anti-drow as the Torilian ones- allowing the Dark Maiden to try and make her drow replace the lolthites as the widely accepted version of what dark elves are, to make it clear that drow can cooperate and coexist with other races, while sill warning and helping her allies against Lolth followers).

The concept of Toril being linked to other worlds was completely dropped in 3e AFAIK. In 2e the concept of Multi-verse was never developed well, IMO (I'm not a long-time fan, actually I joined quite recently, but I'm not aware of any concrete attempt to bridge multiple worlds lore. The story of the Crown Wars and the drow descent in Faerun is completely different from the one in Oerth, for example) and-as you said- FR was the main setting, so most of the material was meant for it. I guess these are the reasons why the lore about Eilistraee is all set in the Realms.
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Re: Jeff Grubb's U is for Underdark

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[quote="Irennan":znsg6qvf]As far as I can see, Eilistraee can easily be incorporated in any setting with Lolth-dominated drow, and she would be the same as she is in the Forgotten Realms/Faerun. You could even use places like the Promenade as a main hub with portals to the various Underdarks, allowing for coordinate operations and faster information spreading and better collabroation among drow from the different worlds. But their ideals and their Modus Operandi would be the same, I guess (there would be little differences,for examples in world where drow are far less known or spread than they are in Faerun -Oerth for example, I guess the non-Faerun part of the FR would do too-. This could ease Eilistraee's work of bonding with other races -if we exclude elves, who are as much anti-drow as the Torilian ones- allowing the Dark Maiden to try and make her drow replace the lolthites as the widely accepted version of what dark elves are, to make it clear that drow can cooperate and coexist with other races, while sill warning and helping her allies against Lolth followers).[/quote:znsg6qvf]

From what I recall of the drow in Maztica, they are pretty much unknown to the locals, as they hide inside a volcano. I believe they were fighting a war with dwarves in the regions of the Underdark between Faerûn and Maztica when the dwarves broke the sea-floor to try to flood the entire area.

[quote="Irennan":znsg6qvf]The concept of Toril being linked to other worlds was completely dropped in 3e AFAIK. In 2e the concept of Multi-verse was never developed well, IMO (I'm not a long-time fan, actually I joined quite recently, but I'm not aware of any concrete attempt to bridge multiple worlds lore.[/quote:znsg6qvf]

The Multiverse was developed first in [i:znsg6qvf]Manual of the Planes[/i:znsg6qvf], then in the [i:znsg6qvf]Spelljammer Campaign Setting[/i:znsg6qvf] then developed more in the [i:znsg6qvf]Planescape Campaign Setting[/i:znsg6qvf]. Spelljammer only tied Krynn (from Dragonlance), Oerth (from Greyhawk) and Toril (from Forgotten Realms) together, but Planescape tied in a lot more worlds. There is quite a lot to The Great Wheel Cosmology and it is certainly much much better developed than the altered cosmology presented in the 3e and 4e FR products. I know that some of the Dragonlance gods are given homes in the Planescape cosmology. I'm not sure if the Drow Pantheon received the same treatment, but Planescape might be useful to some Eilistraee fans.

The concept of Toril being linked to other worlds has never actually been dropped. The 3e [i:znsg6qvf]Forgotten Realms Campaign[/i:znsg6qvf] setting has information on The Sea of Night, Living Forgotten Realms featured a plotline including a spelljamming ship and the 4th Edition Era [i:znsg6qvf]Blades of the Moonsea[/i:znsg6qvf] trilogy of novels feature a trip to one of the Tears of Selune onboard a ship equipped with a spelljamming helm (as well as two trips into the planes).

(There were multiple references to Spelljammer and probably also Planescape before the 3rd Edition Era.)

I know that The Abyssal Plague plotline started out in Nentir Vale and then moved to Forgotten Realms. So there is some sort of connection there.

I'm betting there has also been some sort of Ravenloft connection at some point before 3rd Edition came out.

[quote="Irennan":znsg6qvf]The story of the Crown Wars and the drow descent in Faerun is completely different from the one in Oerth, for example) and-as you said- FR was the main setting, so most of the material was meant for it. I guess these are the reasons why the lore about Eilistraee is all set in the Realms.[/quote:znsg6qvf]

I know there was some strange internal-politics at TSR that meant that some material originally meant for other campaign settings got inserted into the Realms. Some of the early drow adventures, like [url=http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php ... w:znsg6qvf]Vault of the Drow[/url:znsg6qvf] were in Greyhawk, but the drow got more development in Forgotten Realms after Gary Gygax got pushed out of the company. Kara-Tur was going to be on Oerth, but got moved to Toril. And TSR UK were working on a campaign setting that got rebooted as the [url=http://www.candlekeep.com/library/artic ... m:znsg6qvf]Moonshae Islands[/url:znsg6qvf].

If the politics were different, it is highly likely that Eilistaee and co would have been added to Greyhawk. If Gary Gygax had not been ousted, Forgotten Realms might not even have been bought by TSR. Things might be radically different.
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Re: Jeff Grubb's U is for Underdark

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[quote="Dostrealt":3d8euioa][quote="Irennan":3d8euioa]As far as I can see, Eilistraee can easily be incorporated in any setting with Lolth-dominated drow, and she would be the same as she is in the Forgotten Realms/Faerun. You could even use places like the Promenade as a main hub with portals to the various Underdarks, allowing for coordinate operations and faster information spreading and better collabroation among drow from the different worlds. But their ideals and their Modus Operandi would be the same, I guess (there would be little differences,for examples in world where drow are far less known or spread than they are in Faerun -Oerth for example, I guess the non-Faerun part of the FR would do too-. This could ease Eilistraee's work of bonding with other races -if we exclude elves, who are as much anti-drow as the Torilian ones- allowing the Dark Maiden to try and make her drow replace the lolthites as the widely accepted version of what dark elves are, to make it clear that drow can cooperate and coexist with other races, while sill warning and helping her allies against Lolth followers).[/quote:3d8euioa]

From what I recall of the drow in Maztica, they are pretty much unknown to the locals, as they hide inside a volcano. I believe they were fighting a war with dwarves in the regions of the Underdark between Faerûn and Maztica when the dwarves broke the sea-floor to try to flood the entire area. [/quote:3d8euioa]

Eilistraeens could then build a very strong presence there and ally and offer their help to the locals in order to build a strong between the two people.

[quote:3d8euioa][quote="Irennan":3d8euioa]The concept of Toril being linked to other worlds was completely dropped in 3e AFAIK. In 2e the concept of Multi-verse was never developed well, IMO (I'm not a long-time fan, actually I joined quite recently, but I'm not aware of any concrete attempt to bridge multiple worlds lore.[/quote:3d8euioa]

The Multiverse was developed first in [i:3d8euioa]Manual of the Planes[/i:3d8euioa], then in the [i:3d8euioa]Spelljammer Campaign Setting[/i:3d8euioa] then developed more in the [i:3d8euioa]Planescape Campaign Setting[/i:3d8euioa]. Spelljammer only tied Krynn (from Dragonlance), Oerth (from Greyhawk) and Toril (from Forgotten Realms) together, but Planescape tied in a lot more worlds. There is quite a lot to The Great Wheel Cosmology and it is certainly much much better developed than the altered cosmology presented in the 3e and 4e FR products. I know that some of the Dragonlance gods are given homes in the Planescape cosmology. I'm not sure if the Drow Pantheon received the same treatment, but Planescape might be useful to some Eilistraee fans.

The concept of Toril being linked to other worlds has never actually been dropped. The 3e [i:3d8euioa]Forgotten Realms Campaign[/i:3d8euioa] setting has information on The Sea of Night, Living Forgotten Realms featured a plotline including a spelljamming ship and the 4th Edition Era [i:3d8euioa]Blades of the Moonsea[/i:3d8euioa] trilogy of novels feature a trip to one of the Tears of Selune onboard a ship equipped with a spelljamming helm (as well as two trips into the planes).

(There were multiple references to Spelljammer and probably also Planescape before the 3rd Edition Era.)

I know that The Abyssal Plague plotline started out in Nentir Vale and then moved to Forgotten Realms. So there is some sort of connection there.

I'm betting there has also been some sort of Ravenloft connection at some point before 3rd Edition came out.

[quote="Irennan":3d8euioa]The story of the Crown Wars and the drow descent in Faerun is completely different from the one in Oerth, for example) and-as you said- FR was the main setting, so most of the material was meant for it. I guess these are the reasons why the lore about Eilistraee is all set in the Realms.[/quote:3d8euioa]

I know there was some strange internal-politics at TSR that meant that some material originally meant for other campaign settings got inserted into the Realms. Some of the early drow adventures, like [url=http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php ... w:3d8euioa]Vault of the Drow[/url:3d8euioa] were in Greyhawk, but the drow got more development in Forgotten Realms after Gary Gygax got pushed out of the company. Kara-Tur was going to be on Oerth, but got moved to Toril. And TSR UK were working on a campaign setting that got rebooted as the [url=http://www.candlekeep.com/library/artic ... m:3d8euioa]Moonshae Islands[/url:3d8euioa].

If the politics were different, it is highly likely that Eilistaee and co would have been added to Greyhawk. If Gary Gygax had not been ousted, Forgotten Realms might not even have been bought by TSR. Things might be radically different.[/quote:3d8euioa][/quote]

Nonetheless that concept was never well developed and very little would have changed if it had officially been dropped
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Re: Jeff Grubb's U is for Underdark

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[quote="Irennan":19mgzaa6][quote="Dostrealt":19mgzaa6][quote="Irennan":19mgzaa6]As far as I can see, Eilistraee can easily be incorporated in any setting with Lolth-dominated drow, and she would be the same as she is in the Forgotten Realms/Faerun. You could even use places like the Promenade as a main hub with portals to the various Underdarks, allowing for coordinate operations and faster information spreading and better collabroation among drow from the different worlds. But their ideals and their Modus Operandi would be the same, I guess (there would be little differences,for examples in world where drow are far less known or spread than they are in Faerun -Oerth for example, I guess the non-Faerun part of the FR would do too-. This could ease Eilistraee's work of bonding with other races -if we exclude elves, who are as much anti-drow as the Torilian ones- allowing the Dark Maiden to try and make her drow replace the lolthites as the widely accepted version of what dark elves are, to make it clear that drow can cooperate and coexist with other races, while sill warning and helping her allies against Lolth followers).[/quote:19mgzaa6]

From what I recall of the drow in Maztica, they are pretty much unknown to the locals, as they hide inside a volcano. I believe they were fighting a war with dwarves in the regions of the Underdark between Faerûn and Maztica when the dwarves broke the sea-floor to try to flood the entire area. [/quote:19mgzaa6]

Eilistraeens could then build a very strong presence there and ally and offer their help to the locals in order to build a strong between the two people.[/quote:19mgzaa6]

If Lolth could somehow "detect" drow over there and try to gain a toe-hold in the Maztican Underdark, I don't see why other drow deities could not follow her.

But I wonder if Eilistaee could be given a slight Mezo-American makeover, so that she is the same deity, but worshipped in a way that fits in better with the local culture.

[quote="Irennan":19mgzaa6][quote="Dostrealt":19mgzaa6]<snip - hit the quote limit>

If the politics were different, it is highly likely that Eilistaee and co would have been added to Greyhawk. If Gary Gygax had not been ousted, Forgotten Realms might not even have been bought by TSR. Things might be radically different.[/quote:19mgzaa6]

Nonetheless that concept was never well developed and very little would have changed if it had officially been dropped[/quote:19mgzaa6]

I guess that it is unlikely that I will see Eilistaee outside of the context of Faerun in official material. Not unless the 5e core rulebooks give us a "generic drow pantheon" that includes Eilistaee, the rest of the FR drow pantheon and maybe also the additional deities from the GH drow pantheon.
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Re: Jeff Grubb's U is for Underdark

Post by Kaote Bruchedaine »

I may be a bit off the mark seeing as I don't know most of those other settings. But it seems to me the target of the quote you cited was not the culture of all of the underdark(s) being the same but more aimed at the geography. The caves are generally the same, the wildlife being comparable and the oh so glowy moldy bits.
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Re: Jeff Grubb's U is for Underdark

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[quote="Kaote Bruchedaine":358ljd1o]I may be a bit off the mark seeing as I don't know most of those other settings. But it seems to me the target of the quote you cited was not the culture of all of the underdark(s) being the same but more aimed at the geography. The caves are generally the same, the wildlife being comparable and the oh so glowy moldy bits.[/quote:358ljd1o]

Sorry for the delay. That's a very fair point.

And I guess that, if worshippers of Eilistraee travelled from Toril to other worlds, and found that they could not connect with their goddess, they would still have a good idea of how the geography of the Underdark should work.

Worshippers of Eilistraee might even have some level of advantage in the Underdark of a world like Oerth. If the other drow there do not suspect that Eilistraee exists, they would not suspect that there could be an organisation working to allow good drow to flourish. That might make it slightly easier for those visiting drow to hide in plain sight.
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Re: Jeff Grubb's U is for Underdark

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[quote:hp84qm0r]But I wonder if Eilistaee could be given a slight Mezo-American makeover, so that she is the same deity, but worshipped in a way that fits in better with the local culture.[/quote:hp84qm0r]

You could use Xochiquetzal as a Maztica Eilistraee model: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xochiquetzal

Sorry for resurrecting zombie thread but always thought she had amusing resemblance in parts to Eilistraee (a twin, rules young women, beauty and fertility, dance and song, has a thing for flowers, etc.) Granted she also covers stuff like sex and whatnot that Eilistraee doesn't.
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Jeff Grubbs U is for Underdark

Post by Marcelakr »

I agree with BlackBat, theres no need of an underdark in Al Qadim, since the underdark has a widely different tone and scope.

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Re: Jeff Grubb's U is for Underdark

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[quote="Shae":3nqs4z5v][quote:3nqs4z5v]But I wonder if Eilistaee could be given a slight Mezo-American makeover, so that she is the same deity, but worshipped in a way that fits in better with the local culture.[/quote:3nqs4z5v]

You could use Xochiquetzal as a Maztica Eilistraee model: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xochiquetzal

Sorry for resurrecting zombie thread but always thought she had amusing resemblance in parts to Eilistraee (a twin, rules young women, beauty and fertility, dance and song, has a thing for flowers, etc.)[/quote:3nqs4z5v]

Thanks for the bump. Xochiquetzal as Maztica's intepretation of Eilistraee sounds very interesting. I'll have to look up more information about Xochiquetzal.

[quote="Shae":3nqs4z5v]Granted she also covers stuff like sex and whatnot that Eilistraee doesn't.[/quote:3nqs4z5v]

Lolth has a slightly altered pantheon in Greyhawk. A different panthon on the same world, might not make so much sense, but perhaps the people of Maztica could see Eilistraee differently.

If she is kept as a drow goddess (which she probably should be) then maybe she could try to lure drow up to the surface of Maztica and get them to dance naked and seduce the locals during the night. :devil:
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Re: Jeff Grubbs U is for Underdark

Post by Dostrealt »

[quote="Marcelakr":23wn8ppe]I agree with BlackBat, theres no need of an underdark in Al Qadim, since the underdark has a widely different tone and scope.[/quote:23wn8ppe]

Welcome to the Eilistraee.com forums Marcelakr! :D
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