Ed Speaks

Since the Chosen of Eilistraee is a religious oriented player group, naturally there is a place to have theological discussions. That is in-game religions; please leave real-world religion out of it. Debate the fine points of a certain dogma, how a church can enforce worship while staying true to its tenets or simply why one deity is better than another one is. All are free to talk about it here.

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Unen_Stealthfoot
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Post by Unen_Stealthfoot »

[color=darkred:2zmvzobg]And sown the seeds of discontent among lolth's followers. Besides, lolth had several hundred thousand people (several million if you count slaves) and built a few citeis. We had a few hundred (if that) followers and built several outposts. And as for Eilistraee dissapearing, well, no, but I did say "or any other non-evil diety." As for human cities making claims, who cares about them, they only live 80 years at most. Dwarves do have comparable achievements, and even they only live half of drow lifespans. (assuming of course that the drow in question is not assasinated by her own family.)[/color:2zmvzobg]
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Aergale
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Post by Aergale »

To Mikayla:
Even the most beautiful and ornate golden cage is still a cage. As i said, you simply cannot understand how empty of any real life your cherished cities are. Life is to be enjoyed and lived to the fullest, not spent in slavery. You can`t fathom this. Good. Stay where you are. Exist. Do everything you can to survive - even if your existence is empty and pityable. Those who have found a way out will live, laugh and fight. And victory belongs to those who live, not those whose greatest ambition is to be destroyed by their deity after a long and pointless line of crazy "tests". Bah. Nothing is worth such a humilation, damn it.

You keep talking about those cities. I keep telling you they are prisons - graves, even. It is a very comfortable... swamp. And i prefer mountains. Sure, reaching the top of a mountain is difficult. Dangerous too. But it`s worth it.

Spider-kissers are born to slither. They will never learn to fly.

Followers of Eilistraee might be far from free, but they are far happier than you are, i believe. And freedom and happiness are the measure of achievement for me.

To Unen_Stealthfoot: No, the spider-kissers caused the discontent themselves. The problem lies at the core of their system, no? :-)
Last edited by Aergale on Thu Apr 26, 2007 8:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Mikayla »

U:
[quote:1qs4b8xq]And sown the seeds of discontent among lolth's followers. [/quote:1qs4b8xq]

And how is that working out for you? Oh, wait, you answered that yourself right here...

U:
[quote:1qs4b8xq]Besides, lolth had several hundred thousand people (several million if you count slaves) and built a few citeis. We had a few hundred (if that) followers and built several outposts. [/quote:1qs4b8xq]

Right, so, over the last 10,000 years Lolth has amassed an enormous base of followers, despite her being an evil "bug" as Aergale likes to say, while Eilistree, despite being a "good" beautiful goddess of love and kumbaya has managed to amass...much less.

The facts are that since the descent, the followers of Lolth have grown faster in number than the followers of Eilistraee or Vhaerun, despite all the treachery, and they have built more and accomplished more.

As for Aergale - your view of our cities is not my view, which is why, I suppose, I am happy there and you are not. That you cannot understand it is no surprise though - I've not known Vhaerun's followers to be all that smart . . . ;)

Oh, and Aergale, let me know how it goes when your Vhaerunite priests turn to Eilistraee, now that your god is ... um ... not around. :devil:
AKA Sheyreiza Valakasha, Yathtallar d'Lolth, Princess of the Demonweb Pits, aka Ghenni'salla Tlabbar, aka L'olath'anon, the Dark Flower, aka the Valsharess of ALFA, aka ... well ... you get the picture. :devil:
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Post by Aergale »

[quote="Mikayla":2oqjcqs6]
I've not known Vhaerun's followers to be all that smart . . . ;)[/quote:2oqjcqs6]

Bah... you can think whatever you like, it will not make it true. What is smart in blindly following a sadistic and tyrannical oversized bug, again? Vhaeraunites are smart enough to choose change over stagnation. And if vhaeraunites are not smart, why haven`t you caught them all? You capture those who are inexpirienced, impatient or just make mistakes. The rest laugh at you.

[quote="Mikayla":2oqjcqs6] let me know how it goes when your Vhaeraunite priests turn to Eilistraee, now that your god is ... um ... not around. :devil:[/quote:2oqjcqs6]

Huh? Dream on. How many times do i have to repeat to you - it isn`t happening. They dont run screaming to another deity whenever something undesirable happens.

You have made all those points a long time ago. Your spider-kissers will applaud and agree. Those who can think on their own will not care.
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Post by Bhaern Quel »

Well as mentioned before, Ed pictures Lolth remaining the most powerful deity of Drow in the Underdark. Ed also does not envision communities *shrugs* just temples. The Promanade is more then just a temple, it is a community that primary industry is the temple. One of these days I hope to find out how many live there.

The Twisted Tower might be reclaimed again as well, one might call it a fortress though instead of a community.

Of the two chirdren the more aceptance of other races might give Eilistraee an advantage over her brother in total number of followers. In the end it appears likely that the children will seek being greatest deity of the surface Drow, but even if Vhaerun gets more Drow then Eilisraee - Eilistraee could very well have a greater number of followers.

Of course in the end, if one wants to follow canon, WotC will tell us how the power gets divided.
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Post by Mikayla »

Aergale:
[quote:3t4v5x89]Bah... you can think whatever you like, it will not make it true.[/quote:3t4v5x89]

Funny, thats how I feel about the things you say.

Aergale:
[quote:3t4v5x89]The rest laugh at you.[/quote:3t4v5x89]

Fair enough. I suppose if we cared enough about you Vhaerunites, we would laugh at you too ... oh wait ... we do laugh at you. C'est la vie, non?

As for your protestations about the faith of Vhaerun's followers and clergy - I suppose we shall see in the upcoming books, because, well, let me quote BQ here . . .

BQ:
[quote:3t4v5x89]Of course in the end, if one wants to follow canon, WotC will tell us how the power gets divided.[/quote:3t4v5x89]

And there is the truth of it.
AKA Sheyreiza Valakasha, Yathtallar d'Lolth, Princess of the Demonweb Pits, aka Ghenni'salla Tlabbar, aka L'olath'anon, the Dark Flower, aka the Valsharess of ALFA, aka ... well ... you get the picture. :devil:
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Post by Aergale »

[quote="Mikayla":2dmq6wj9]
Funny, thats how I feel about the things you say.
[/quote:2dmq6wj9]

Why should i care?

[quote="Mikayla":2dmq6wj9]
Fair enough. I suppose if we cared enough about you Vhaerunites, we would laugh at you too ... oh wait ... we do laugh at you.
[/quote:2dmq6wj9]

What? You actually know how to laugh? What a surprise.


[quote="Mikayla":2dmq6wj9]
As for your protestations about the faith of Vhaerun's followers and clergy - I suppose we shall see in the upcoming books... [/quote:2dmq6wj9]

It is true. the WotC can do whatever they like. However, if vhaeraunites were so easily discouraged, they wouldn`t even rebel in the first place. They fight not as much for a deity, as for a goal. Sure, there might be a mess. But hardly many deserters. Especially between priests. Especially to Eilistraee, given the circumstances. Vhaeraunites have never been weaklings, and if the authors make them look this way, i will lose any respect for those authors, because there is no way rebels and heretics in drow society who never look for the easy way could be weaklings. But such a thing would not make me respect vhaeraunites any less. The original writeup shows them as determined and brave. I will stick to that, thank you very much.
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Post by Mikayla »

You tell yourself whatever you need to tell yourself to sleep at night sweetheart. As for your belief that the "original writeup shows them as determined and brave. I will stick to that, thank you very much" well, let me answer you with your own words: Why should I care?

And yes, I know how to laugh - and even if I didn't, with folks like you around, I would learn. You give me a lot to laugh about.
AKA Sheyreiza Valakasha, Yathtallar d'Lolth, Princess of the Demonweb Pits, aka Ghenni'salla Tlabbar, aka L'olath'anon, the Dark Flower, aka the Valsharess of ALFA, aka ... well ... you get the picture. :devil:
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Post by Aergale »

What makes you think i need to tell myself anything to sleep at night? The fact that you do? What i told about vhaeraunites is the way they are portrayed.

You know what? How often do you consider the feelings of your characters? Or maybe, you just make tools to help you pretend being a little aristocrat, instead of characters? Even a masochist would get fed up with all the dirt your spider bitch throws her playthings into. Why dont you imagine trying to serve her yourself, in real life. Pleasant? No. You know it well. She always comes up with more and more twisted ways of torture for her slaves. And it is no wonder your precious spider-kissers are so good at torturing others - they know pain and desperation firsthand, just dont have the courage to stand against it.
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Post by Mikayla »

Aergale:
[quote:3ksbbohp]You know what? How often do you consider the feelings of your characters? Or maybe, you just make tools to help you pretend being a little aristocrat, instead of characters? Even a masochist would get fed up with all the dirt your spider bitch throws her playthings into. Why dont you imagine trying to serve her yourself, in real life. Pleasant? No. You know it well. She always comes up with more and more twisted ways of torture for her slaves. And it is no wonder your precious spider-kissers are so good at torturing others - they know pain and desperation firsthand, just dont have the courage to stand against it.[/quote:3ksbbohp]

Touchy touchy.

What I do in real-life and what I do in D&D are two entirely different things; that is the whole point of playing a fantasy role-playing game. If I restricted myself to playing and doing only those things I would do in real life, I would not play Dungeons & Dragons, I would end up playing "Cubicles & Coworkers." Perhaps you think you really are a daring, rebellious, Vhaerunite assassin/warrior/whatever? That really would be a fantasy.

Now, do I imagine the feelings my character goes through? Of course - thats the point of role-playing. You can read exactly what my character thinks and feels as she makes her way through Lolthian society (and other societies also, including the promenade of Eilistraee) - you see, I've written it all down. In the "Story" forum here I've a series of posts: "Spider and Moon, Flower and Butterfly" that are excerpts from my longer "Dark Flower" saga about my character. Infact, if you want to check out the whole thing, go the A Land Far Away forums (alandfaraway.org, then select forums, then go to the library, then start near the beginning - look for Dark Flower Book I, Chapter 1). At this point, I have some 60+ chapters to her story - all of which contain what she thinks, what she feels, etc. So, yes, I do think about it - a lot. Thanks for asking.
AKA Sheyreiza Valakasha, Yathtallar d'Lolth, Princess of the Demonweb Pits, aka Ghenni'salla Tlabbar, aka L'olath'anon, the Dark Flower, aka the Valsharess of ALFA, aka ... well ... you get the picture. :devil:
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Post by Aergale »

[quote="Mikayla":2mbhh74x]

Perhaps you think you really are a daring, rebellious, Vhaerunite assassin/warrior/whatever? That really would be a fantasy.
[/quote:2mbhh74x]

Of course not. However, i think that i would have rebelled if i happened to be in the same circumstances. It wouldn`t have been successful, but so what?
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Post by Mikayla »

I can safely say that if I woke up one day in that tired-old-gamer-cliche of waking up in your character's body, or in some character's body, in a "real" game world, I would not worship Lolth - that b***h is crazy! In game, my character has put her own son on the altar for Lolth and cut his heart out - in real life, I would die to protect my son. So, when I argue "for" Lolth, its in my tongue-in-cheek forum persona as a Lolthian priestess, not because I think I would really want to live under her rule - hell, she is [i:111ecypl]evil[/i:111ecypl]. Evil I say!
AKA Sheyreiza Valakasha, Yathtallar d'Lolth, Princess of the Demonweb Pits, aka Ghenni'salla Tlabbar, aka L'olath'anon, the Dark Flower, aka the Valsharess of ALFA, aka ... well ... you get the picture. :devil:
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Post by Rooky »

Breathe Mikayla, breathe...take it easy...breathe...
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Post by Sancha »

[quote="Mikayla":3u22v7te]
As for when Lolth disappeared - she lost two cities - Ched and Maerimydra - but the rest of her cities held, even without the Goddess and despite the best efforts of Vhaerun's followers,[/quote:3u22v7te]

What went down in the WotSQ books was NOT what anyone could honestly call a 'best effort.'

Sorry. They way they wrote that, it was as if Vhaeraun has only one follower, a half-shadow dragon assassin, and this is clearly not the case according to all the sourcebooks.

What happened in those novels was not even close to what you can claim to be a 'best effort of Vhaeraun's followers.' It was the best effort of ONE of his followers, perhaps... a weak half-drow at that.

It was simply WotC writers once again failing to research their source material and deciding to 'overlook' a lot of things in order to fit the out-dated TSR/WotC Writer's Guidelines or simply meld the Realms to their own personal twisted vision, instead of adhering to cannon.

As far as drow cities go... Menzoberanzan is not a large city, it's a very small one. Only the locals delude themselves into thinking it's the be-all and end-all of drow underdark cities. The priestesses of Gauillidurth in the south could show you a REAL city of Lolth. *wink*

Another far larger and more successful ancient drow city that is often overlooked by people is Eryndlyn. It has three or four times the population of Drow as Menzoberanzan does. Menzo's population is measoured in tens of thousands. Eryndlyn's population (and several other drow cities) are measured in HUNDREDS of thousands. It was not founded by the Spiderkisser church, either. It was founded long ago by drow merchant clans and noble families looking to get away from the religious fervor of Lolth's cities, and reclaim the legacies of their ancestors ancient homeland, destroyed by the High Elves during the Crown Wars. It is only since the Time of Troubles a couple decades ago that religious strife has taken over in Eryndlyn, and launched them into housel wars and civil war between all four major drow churches. It is a grand city, full of all the things you like about Drow underdark cities. But it is that way because the [i:3u22v7te]Drow[/i:3u22v7te] made it so, not because Lloth's Church made it so. ;)

Sshamath as well has done JUST fine without rulership by the Spiderkissers. It is the pre-eminent maker and market of magic items in all of Faeurun. No direct thanks to Lloth. ;)
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Post by Mikayla »

Sancha:
[quote:1cz1s7pi]What went down in the WotSQ books was NOT what anyone could honestly call a 'best effort.'

Sorry. They way they wrote that, it was as if Vhaeraun has only one follower, a half-shadow dragon assassin, and this is clearly not the case according to all the sourcebooks.
[/quote:1cz1s7pi]

If you are going to start discounting the novels, then I get to do that as well - indeed, if we start throwing out what happens in the novels, we can make up whatever we like about the gods. You may not like what happened, but thats the way WotC's authors wrote it. The attempts on Menzo and Ched were the best the Jaezred Chaulssin could do - and presumably, Vhaerun's fight against Selevetarm in which Vhaerun lost his hand was the best he could do, and the priest of Vhaerun who summoned him and who was later killed by the party of Lolth worshippers was doing the best he could. Thats the way it was written.


[quote:1cz1s7pi]What happened in those novels was not even close to what you can claim to be a 'best effort of Vhaeraun's followers.' It was the best effort of ONE of his followers, perhaps... a weak half-drow at that.[/quote:1cz1s7pi]

As noted, it was the best effort of the Jaezred Chaulssin, whose organization is explained in great detail in the latest Web Enchancement on the WotC site. They are, at least nominally, Vhaerun followers, though since the Silence ended they are moving away from Vhaerun according to that text.

S:
[quote:1cz1s7pi]It was simply WotC writers once again failing to research their source material and deciding to 'overlook' a lot of things in order to fit the out-dated TSR/WotC Writer's Guidelines or simply meld the Realms to their own personal twisted vision, instead of adhering to cannon.[/quote:1cz1s7pi]

Maybe - but I could claim the same thing every time Lolthian forces were defeated to, such as at the Battle of Keeper's Dell/Mithral Hall. Its easy to claim "hey, it wouldn't REALLY happen that way" - but we are stuck with what they write.

S:
[quote:1cz1s7pi]As far as drow cities go... Menzoberanzan is not a large city, it's a very small one. Only the locals delude themselves into thinking it's the be-all and end-all of drow underdark cities. The priestesses of Gauillidurth in the south could show you a REAL city of Lolth. *wink*[/quote:1cz1s7pi]

Guallidurth I believe - and I never claimed Menzoberranzan was a large city as the drow go.

S:
[quote:1cz1s7pi]Another far larger and more successful ancient drow city that is often overlooked by people is Eryndlyn. It has three or four times the population of Drow as Menzoberanzan does. Menzo's population is measoured in tens of thousands. Eryndlyn's population (and several other drow cities) are measured in HUNDREDS of thousands. [/quote:1cz1s7pi]

Not anymore - since the switch from Second Edition to Third Edition all those over-inflated second edition population figures have been adjusted downwards, including Eryndlyn.

S:
[quote:1cz1s7pi]It was not founded by the Spiderkisser church, either. It was founded long ago by drow merchant clans and noble families looking to get away from the religious fervor of Lolth's cities, and reclaim the legacies of their ancestors ancient homeland, destroyed by the High Elves during the Crown Wars. It is only since the Time of Troubles a couple decades ago that religious strife has taken over in Eryndlyn, and launched them into housel wars and civil war between all four major drow churches. It is a grand city, full of all the things you like about Drow underdark cities. But it is that way because the Drow made it so, not because Lloth's Church made it so. Wink[/quote:1cz1s7pi]

So what?

S:
[quote:1cz1s7pi]Sshamath as well has done JUST fine without rulership by the Spiderkissers. It is the pre-eminent maker and market of magic items in all of Faeurun. No direct thanks to Lloth. Wink[/quote:1cz1s7pi]

Again, so what? The fact that Eryndlyn is multi-religious (Lolth, Vhaerun and Ghaundaur) and the fact that Sschamath is ruled by secular wizards (though there are still Loltian clerics there) does not detract from the number of Lolthian cities - Menzoberranzan, Sschindylrn (sp?), Undrek-Thoz, Guallidurth, Karsouthyl (sp again?), etc.

Oh, and Sshamath was founded by Lolthians - they just lost the city to the wizards. And we are not even including Llurth Deir (sp?) which is as huge as Guallidurth, but which Lolth simply abandoned because she was disgusted by the population.

Still, after all of that, the settlements and accomplishments of Lolth's followers far, far, far exceed those of Vhaerun's followers or Eilistraee's followers or Ghaundaur's followers or Kiaransalee's followers. I am not saying that Vhaerun's followers never accomplished anything, or Eilistraee's, but they have not accomplished nearly as much nor have they been nearly as successful as Lolth's followers. Its just the way it is, even if you don't like the way things are written.
AKA Sheyreiza Valakasha, Yathtallar d'Lolth, Princess of the Demonweb Pits, aka Ghenni'salla Tlabbar, aka L'olath'anon, the Dark Flower, aka the Valsharess of ALFA, aka ... well ... you get the picture. :devil:
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