[quote="Mikayla":1u74e140]Sancha:
[quote:1u74e140]What went down in the WotSQ books was NOT what anyone could honestly call a 'best effort.'
Sorry. They way they wrote that, it was as if Vhaeraun has only one follower, a half-shadow dragon assassin, and this is clearly not the case according to all the sourcebooks.
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If you are going to start discounting the novels, then I get to do that as well - indeed, if we start throwing out what happens in the novels, we can make up whatever we like about the gods. You may not like what happened, but thats the way WotC's authors wrote it. The attempts on Menzo and Ched were the best the Jaezred Chaulssin could do - and presumably, Vhaerun's fight against Selevetarm in which Vhaerun lost his hand was the best he could do, and the priest of Vhaerun who summoned him and who was later killed by the party of Lolth worshippers was doing the best he could. Thats the way it was written.
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Uhm... I never said or implied I was discounting the novels.
I only pointed out that no one can truthfully claim that what occured in those novels was the 'best effort of Vhaeraun's followers.'
This is supported by all the second AND third edition sourcebooks. According to the cannon material, Vhaeraun has a great many worshippers, and his church has many far-reaching and co-operating organizations. In those novels we saw one small tiny assassin guild, who did not have support from the Church itself and left all of it's efforts to ONE single assassin, who failed.
That does not qualify as the best efforts of his followers. It seems his church, it's organizations and his massive amounts of followers did not even appear in the book. So how could it have been their best effort, when they have not yet even taken part in the War of the Spider Queen?
[quote="Mikayla":1u74e140]
As noted, it was the best effort of the Jaezred Chaulssin, whose organization is explained in great detail in the latest Web Enchancement on the WotC site. They are, at least nominally, Vhaerun followers, though since the Silence ended they are moving away from Vhaerun according to that text.
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Your correction is accepted. Yes, it was the best effort of the Jaezred Chaulssin guild.
Which I'm sure we BOTH could agree was somewhat pathetic.
[quote="Mikayla":1u74e140]
Guallidurth I believe - and I never claimed Menzoberranzan was a large city as the drow go.
[/quote:1u74e140]
Then why was it always the first mentioned example whenever you brought up the grand large cities of the drow? It implied you believe it to be a large city.
[quote:1u74e140]Another far larger and more successful ancient drow city that is often overlooked by people is Eryndlyn. It has three or four times the population of Drow as Menzoberanzan does. Menzo's population is measoured in tens of thousands. Eryndlyn's population (and several other drow cities) are measured in HUNDREDS of thousands. [/quote:1u74e140]
[quote="Mikayla":1u74e140]
Not anymore - since the switch from Second Edition to Third Edition all those over-inflated second edition population figures have been adjusted downwards, including Eryndlyn.
[/quote:1u74e140]
Can you please point me to what 3rd edition book and what page within that book shows population figures for Eryndlyn? Is it new? If it exists, I will have to go get it. The Underdark book does not give any indication that it is a smaller city than it used to be, or give any info on it's population. It had less info on the city than the second edition books had.
[quote="Mikayla":1u74e140]
So what?
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So what? Well, you were claiming that only the followers of Lolth had founded and built up grand, large, civilizations in the Underdark. I pointed out one that was not founded and built up by Lolthites, though they are working hard to destroy it....
[quote="Mikayla":1u74e140]
[quote:1u74e140]Sshamath as well has done JUST fine without rulership by the Spiderkissers. It is the pre-eminent maker and market of magic items in all of Faeurun. No direct thanks to Lloth. Wink[/quote:1u74e140]
Again, so what? The fact that Eryndlyn is multi-religious (Lolth, Vhaerun and Ghaundaur) and the fact that Sschamath is ruled by secular wizards (though there are still Loltian clerics there) does not detract from the number of Lolthian cities - Menzoberranzan, Sschindylrn (sp?), Undrek-Thoz, Guallidurth, Karsouthyl (sp again?), etc.
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So what? I never said that they detract from the number of Lolthian cities or that the Llothites do not have cities. I merely said that your assertation that [i:1u74e140]only[/i:1u74e140] the Llothites had such cities and that other drow only have campsites was in error.
[quote="Mikayla":1u74e140]
Still, after all of that, the settlements and accomplishments of Lolth's followers far, far, far exceed those of Vhaerun's followers or Eilistraee's followers or Ghaundaur's followers or Kiaransalee's followers. I am not saying that Vhaerun's followers never accomplished anything, or Eilistraee's, but they have not accomplished nearly as much nor have they been nearly as successful as Lolth's followers. Its just the way it is, even if you don't like the way things are written.[/quote:1u74e140]
Yes, they certainly do exceed those of the followers of the other faiths. I accept your changed standing as true. The original insinuation that none of them even HAVE accomplishments was, on the other hand, utter hogwash.
(When did I say I don't like the way it is written? Could you please stop shoving words in my mouth and thoughts in my head? kthxbye)