[quote="Bhaern Quel":3ptefoag]Well first guess would be Mystra, after all Qilué is Chosen of both deities.[/quote:3ptefoag]
That was my first thought as well. But then, wouldn’t Qilué recognize Mystra’s voice?
[quote="Bhaern Quel":3ptefoag]Second guess would be Vhaeraun infering he still lives and the children made a deal against their mother.[/quote:3ptefoag]
Well, since this instant was long before Vhaeraun was killed (supposedly or not) it could’ve been him. But then I’m not so certain if Eilistraee would allow it.
Another possibility that crossed my mind was that it was Corellon Larethian. After all it [i:3ptefoag]is[/i:3ptefoag] very much a family feud (Lolth is the mother, Eilistraee and Vhaeraun are the siblings and Selvetarm is the grandson) and Corellon is the father. It wouldn’t surprise me in the least if he got involved, even if only from a distance, and Eilistraee certainly would allow him to intervene.
Then again, who knows. We don’t have nearly enough information to go on at this point. Just speculation.
Love -x-x-x-
Shir'le
Sacrifice of the Widow Speculation- SPOILERS
Moderators: Shir'le E. Illios, Bhaern Quel
-
Shir'le E. Illios
- High Priestess
- Posts: 2352
- Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:51 pm
- Location: Eilistraee.com
- Contact:
-= Shir'le E. Illios =-
Chosen of Eilistraee
[quote="Shir'le E. Illios":108z8mdm][quote="Vendrin":108z8mdm](I could stand the loss of one, but both male deities in the pantheon?)[/quote:108z8mdm]
Remember, there's another male deity.
Love -x-x-x-
Shir'le[/quote:108z8mdm]
Oozeboy is just a crazy hungry thing that has no suave, intelligence or even the hunter's cunning that Selvy had going for him.
I don't even consider him worth considering as a deity for any uninsane character.
Remember, there's another male deity.
Love -x-x-x-
Shir'le[/quote:108z8mdm]
Oozeboy is just a crazy hungry thing that has no suave, intelligence or even the hunter's cunning that Selvy had going for him.
I don't even consider him worth considering as a deity for any uninsane character.
"What does God want? Does God want goodness or the choice of goodness? Is a man who chooses evil perhaps in some way better than a man who has good imposed upon him?"
[quote="Shir'le E. Illios":11349qp9]To be fair there’s no proof that they [i:11349qp9]are[/i:11349qp9] trying to get rid of good drow (it was just my speculation that that’s what they might be trying to do [i:11349qp9]if[/i:11349qp9] Eilistraee changes alignment to neutral in a later book).
I’m actually quite curious how those that tend to play evil drow feel about the whole thing. I mean, people have [i:11349qp9]got[/i:11349qp9] to be upset with Vhaeraun’s death (if he really is; I’m not to that point yet). And making it either Eilistraee or Lolth makes it so that one way or another a lot of people are going to be pissed off (again, if they actually go ahead with that).
Love -x-x-x-
Shir'le[/quote:11349qp9]
I'm glad someone asked. I've really been wanting to talk about it since I finished reading the book. Yes, I really was upset by that. I've been playing drow for over 15 years now, and mostly I play evil or neutral drow, including extremely zealous agents of Vhaeraun.
What upset me most was not just that they killed Vhaeraun off, but that they didn't even have the decency to give him a few pages of appearanes like he got in his brief cameos in WotSQ. Moreso though, it bugged me that they just took him out at what is really the start of the civil war/family feud in the drow pantheon, and his worshippers and his church hardly seem to exist in the books.
And I really agreed with Jezz, for once. (He and one of my PCs don't usually see eye to eye). I thought those so-called Nightshadows in this book were all really spiderkissers too. They acted like them, not like priests of Vhaeraun should. (I felt like Ms Smedman failed to read Vhaeraun's Dogma before writing about his layfollowers (like Jezz) and his clergy.)
I'll post more later about how I felt about it and why, and why I feel the author gave Vhaeraun's worshippers the shaft. I have to run for now.
Nice site by the way. Thanks for the surpisingly warm welcome.
-Sancha of House Vrinn, Second House of Eryndlyn
Black market merchant and Dark Dagger agent
I’m actually quite curious how those that tend to play evil drow feel about the whole thing. I mean, people have [i:11349qp9]got[/i:11349qp9] to be upset with Vhaeraun’s death (if he really is; I’m not to that point yet). And making it either Eilistraee or Lolth makes it so that one way or another a lot of people are going to be pissed off (again, if they actually go ahead with that).
Love -x-x-x-
Shir'le[/quote:11349qp9]
I'm glad someone asked. I've really been wanting to talk about it since I finished reading the book. Yes, I really was upset by that. I've been playing drow for over 15 years now, and mostly I play evil or neutral drow, including extremely zealous agents of Vhaeraun.
What upset me most was not just that they killed Vhaeraun off, but that they didn't even have the decency to give him a few pages of appearanes like he got in his brief cameos in WotSQ. Moreso though, it bugged me that they just took him out at what is really the start of the civil war/family feud in the drow pantheon, and his worshippers and his church hardly seem to exist in the books.
And I really agreed with Jezz, for once. (He and one of my PCs don't usually see eye to eye). I thought those so-called Nightshadows in this book were all really spiderkissers too. They acted like them, not like priests of Vhaeraun should. (I felt like Ms Smedman failed to read Vhaeraun's Dogma before writing about his layfollowers (like Jezz) and his clergy.)
I'll post more later about how I felt about it and why, and why I feel the author gave Vhaeraun's worshippers the shaft. I have to run for now.
Nice site by the way. Thanks for the surpisingly warm welcome.
-Sancha of House Vrinn, Second House of Eryndlyn
Black market merchant and Dark Dagger agent
-
Shir'le E. Illios
- High Priestess
- Posts: 2352
- Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:51 pm
- Location: Eilistraee.com
- Contact:
[quote="Sancha":23z1s56l]I'm glad someone asked. I've really been wanting to talk about it since I finished reading the book. Yes, I really was upset by that. I've been playing drow for over 15 years now, and mostly I play evil or neutral drow, including extremely zealous agents of Vhaeraun.[/quote:23z1s56l]
You’re quite welcome to discuss the book (or any other book, or anything else for that matter really) to your heart’s content. Just don’t try and convert our visitors to follow you evil gods.
[quote="Sancha":23z1s56l]What upset me most was not just that they killed Vhaeraun off, but that they didn't even have the decency to give him a few pages of appearanes like he got in his brief cameos in WotSQ.[/quote:23z1s56l]
Well, none of the deities themselves got all that much screentime; just during the prologue and epilogue really (during both of which Vhaeraun definitely made his presence felt). For the rest it’s completely about the followers of the deities and while they might at times be in communication with their deities (including Vhaeraun) I don’t recall ever actually having [i:23z1s56l]seen[/i:23z1s56l] any of them (except Vhaeraun, very briefly, ironically enough). Well, and Selvetarm of course.
[quote="Sancha":23z1s56l]Moreso though, it bugged me that they just took him out at what is really the start of the civil war/family feud in the drow pantheon[/quote:23z1s56l]
Part of what I was expecting to see when I heard in advance that Eilistraee killed Vhaeraun in battle in this book was said battle between Eilistraee and Vhaeraun. The fact that they didn’t show that [i:23z1s56l]could[/i:23z1s56l] be because they didn’t want to make it about the gods, but about the mortal followers of these gods. But it gives me the impression that Vhaeraun isn’t really dead (partly, as well, because Eilistraee seems to be oblivious to the fact that apparently she killed her brother and instead just talks about capturing this ‘piece’ that seems to be more than a slave).
The only ‘proof’ we have of his demise is the words of his followers. Now, I believe that [i:23z1s56l]they[/i:23z1s56l] believe that he’s dead, but that might simply be because Vhaeraun wishes them to believe so (he is, after all, a deity of deceit and treachery). I simply think that this is Vhaeraun’s way of allying himself with his sister without openly doing so (even Eilistraee seems unaware that now they’re apparently working together) and to do so all he had to do was convince everyone that he’s dead.
Still, I could be wrong of course and he could really be dead with Eilistraee having absorbed his essence or whatever (like a drow highlander ). And while I can fully understand being upset with him (possibly) being dead [i:23z1s56l]and[/i:23z1s56l] I think he might be alive still, now that they’ve given the appearance of him being dead I hope he [i:23z1s56l]stays[/i:23z1s56l] dead. This is not so much because I dislike Vhaeraun or anything, but more because dead has little enough meaning an finality in the Forgotten Realms as it is (as you can see in this book as the biggest danger for the Eilistraeens isn’t that they’ll die, but that their soul is destroyed; seems authors too are looking for ways to put some real danger back).
Then again, if they kill Eilistraee I think I’ll probably leave the Forgotten Realms forever.
[quote="Sancha":23z1s56l]Nice site by the way. Thanks for the surpisingly warm welcome.[/quote:23z1s56l]
Thank you, and be welcome indeed.
Love -x-x-x-
Shir'le
You’re quite welcome to discuss the book (or any other book, or anything else for that matter really) to your heart’s content. Just don’t try and convert our visitors to follow you evil gods.
[quote="Sancha":23z1s56l]What upset me most was not just that they killed Vhaeraun off, but that they didn't even have the decency to give him a few pages of appearanes like he got in his brief cameos in WotSQ.[/quote:23z1s56l]
Well, none of the deities themselves got all that much screentime; just during the prologue and epilogue really (during both of which Vhaeraun definitely made his presence felt). For the rest it’s completely about the followers of the deities and while they might at times be in communication with their deities (including Vhaeraun) I don’t recall ever actually having [i:23z1s56l]seen[/i:23z1s56l] any of them (except Vhaeraun, very briefly, ironically enough). Well, and Selvetarm of course.
[quote="Sancha":23z1s56l]Moreso though, it bugged me that they just took him out at what is really the start of the civil war/family feud in the drow pantheon[/quote:23z1s56l]
Part of what I was expecting to see when I heard in advance that Eilistraee killed Vhaeraun in battle in this book was said battle between Eilistraee and Vhaeraun. The fact that they didn’t show that [i:23z1s56l]could[/i:23z1s56l] be because they didn’t want to make it about the gods, but about the mortal followers of these gods. But it gives me the impression that Vhaeraun isn’t really dead (partly, as well, because Eilistraee seems to be oblivious to the fact that apparently she killed her brother and instead just talks about capturing this ‘piece’ that seems to be more than a slave).
The only ‘proof’ we have of his demise is the words of his followers. Now, I believe that [i:23z1s56l]they[/i:23z1s56l] believe that he’s dead, but that might simply be because Vhaeraun wishes them to believe so (he is, after all, a deity of deceit and treachery). I simply think that this is Vhaeraun’s way of allying himself with his sister without openly doing so (even Eilistraee seems unaware that now they’re apparently working together) and to do so all he had to do was convince everyone that he’s dead.
Still, I could be wrong of course and he could really be dead with Eilistraee having absorbed his essence or whatever (like a drow highlander
). And while I can fully understand being upset with him (possibly) being dead [i:23z1s56l]and[/i:23z1s56l] I think he might be alive still, now that they’ve given the appearance of him being dead I hope he [i:23z1s56l]stays[/i:23z1s56l] dead. This is not so much because I dislike Vhaeraun or anything, but more because dead has little enough meaning an finality in the Forgotten Realms as it is (as you can see in this book as the biggest danger for the Eilistraeens isn’t that they’ll die, but that their soul is destroyed; seems authors too are looking for ways to put some real danger back).Then again, if they kill Eilistraee I think I’ll probably leave the Forgotten Realms forever.
[quote="Sancha":23z1s56l]Nice site by the way. Thanks for the surpisingly warm welcome.[/quote:23z1s56l]
Thank you, and be welcome indeed.
Love -x-x-x-
Shir'le
-= Shir'le E. Illios =-
Chosen of Eilistraee
[quote="Shir'le E. Illios":2xvywxjq]
You’re quite welcome to discuss the book (or any other book, or anything else for that matter really) to your heart’s content. Just don’t try and convert our visitors to follow you evil gods.
[/quote:2xvywxjq]
Oh, don't worry about that. I have no desire to get myself in trouble by even suggesting it. It turned out badly for my father when he tried...
OOC:
[quote="Sancha":2xvywxjq]What upset me most was not just that they killed Vhaeraun off, but that they didn't even have the decency to give him a few pages of appearanes like he got in his brief cameos in WotSQ.[/quote:2xvywxjq]
I guess I'm not upset by the lack of screentime that Vhaeraun himself got compared to the other gods (though I would have like to hear him speak, or even a few snippets of his thoughts more than the 2 lines he said to one worshipper). It was comparable to the rest. With the exception of the confrontation between him and Eilistraee. I wanted to see that. I wanted to see both of them more.
I also wanted to see a few more pages of Selvatarm. I don't like that the Drow God of Warriors went down so easiliy, basically without even a fight. One shot from him to her, one shot from her to him, and that was it. It was anti-dramatic.
What upset me about the 'lack' with Vhaeraun was more the tiny role his [i:2xvywxjq]followers[/i:2xvywxjq] played, and mostly the way they were portrayed.** They didn't do much in this book, but much of what they did do was totally not in keeping with Vhaeraun's dogma. Other things they did would be acceptable or expected to see from a lay worshipper, like a recent convert freshly freed from the Spider's Web, but would NEVER be acceptable for his priests to do. I hated how they acted like squabbling spiderkissers, and how they were more mindless-evil-for-the-sake-of-evil rather than cunning-evil-and-the-ends-justify-the-means-evil.
**(On the bright side we at least got to see a decent sized group of them, unlike WotSQ where it seemed like there were only two or three agents of the Masked Lord in existance. He sent a fiendish mercenary to do something THAT important, instead of his own people??!??! argh)
I had spent a few days writing up a review and big in-depth critique of the book after I finished it... was hoping to post it somewhere like amazon.com or just on LJ to warn other realmsfans so they could decide whether to buy the book or not. I needed an outlet. This will do much better though. Discourse with like-minded roleplayers is better than an angry rant on a review site.
I'll pull a few parts out of it, to go more in depth about what my specific problems are with how the priests of Vhaeraun were acting.
[quote="Shir'le E. Illios":2xvywxjq]
[quote="Sancha":2xvywxjq]Moreso though, it bugged me that they just took him out at what is really the start of the civil war/family feud in the drow pantheon[/quote:2xvywxjq]
Part of what I was expecting to see when I heard in advance that Eilistraee killed Vhaeraun in battle in this book was said battle between Eilistraee and Vhaeraun.
[/quote:2xvywxjq]
I wanted to see the battle between them. I felt a bit ripped off that we only learn of it through exposition. I felt they didn't show us nearly enough of the battle between Selvatarm and Vhaeraun in the WotSQ books, but at least we got to see them cross swords for a few rounds.
This book would have been much better and had greater impact if we, the readers, if not Quile and the characters, got to see Vhaeraun confront Eilistraee. Maybe see them do a bit of a sword dance. The end of it could have still been left vague. We still could ahve been left with the impression that she slew him and absorbed his essence and took over his portolio, and still could have gotten the implied subtext of the other possibility that I seem to have missed.... that could have been done, WHILE letting us see them go a few rounds and exchange a few rounds... and would not have left me so disappointed in it. I might have instead been eager to read the next book to find out what actually happened....
[quote="Shir'le E. Illios":2xvywxjq]
The only ‘proof’ we have of his demise is the words of his followers. Now, I believe that [i:2xvywxjq]they[/i:2xvywxjq] believe that he’s dead, but that might simply be because Vhaeraun wishes them to believe so (he is, after all, a deity of deceit and treachery). I simply think that this is Vhaeraun’s way of allying himself with his sister without openly doing so (even Eilistraee seems unaware that now they’re apparently working together) and to do so all he had to do was convince everyone that he’s dead.
[/quote:2xvywxjq]
I really really hope you are right. The way you put that, yes, that is the kind of thing I could see Vhaeraun doing...
I've always felt that if he got to the point where he was ready to unite the drow powers against Lolth, or actually admitted that he needed his sister's help for something, that he might very well try to trick her into giving it. That serves a twofold purpose -- first, and conciously, it is one way to get around any resistance or reluctance she might have to say yes. Secondly, and subconciously, it will appese Vhaeraun's pride and hurt feelings to know that his sister is helping him, but she doesn't WANT to and he didn't have to BEG her for help.
While it is not normally his style to sacrifice followers needlessly (They say he actually cares about them like his sister does hers, and is more involved personally with his worshippers than any drow deity), I could see him sacrifcing a few priests if he absolutely needed to ensure that NOBODY could let his plan slip. If his priests didn't KNOW that was what he was really doing, then their souls could not be questioned. Nor could any spy involved in the high magic ritual read their minds and learn of the real plan. That makes sense, and he'd do it if he had to. The priests will end up in Elleniath, and he can explain and apologise to them later. And perhaps raise them and send them back to work later if they take it graciously....
[quote="Shir'le E. Illios":2xvywxjq]
Then again, if they kill Eilistraee I think I’ll probably leave the Forgotten Realms forever.
Love -x-x-x-
Shir'le[/quote:2xvywxjq]
I won't leave the Realms forever, even if they do kill my favourite god permanently. Even if they kill Eilistraee, which would also piss me off.
I'll just house rule it and say it didn't happen when I'm DMing drow campaigns, or give the PCs a chance to stop it from occuring or something. I'll likely stop buying new books from WotC, but I won't leave the Realms itself. I love them too much. I've been playing surface drow now for almost 15 years. I'm not gonig to stop anytime soon.
You’re quite welcome to discuss the book (or any other book, or anything else for that matter really) to your heart’s content. Just don’t try and convert our visitors to follow you evil gods.
[/quote:2xvywxjq]
Oh, don't worry about that. I have no desire to get myself in trouble by even suggesting it. It turned out badly for my father when he tried...
OOC:
[quote="Sancha":2xvywxjq]What upset me most was not just that they killed Vhaeraun off, but that they didn't even have the decency to give him a few pages of appearanes like he got in his brief cameos in WotSQ.[/quote:2xvywxjq]
I guess I'm not upset by the lack of screentime that Vhaeraun himself got compared to the other gods (though I would have like to hear him speak, or even a few snippets of his thoughts more than the 2 lines he said to one worshipper). It was comparable to the rest. With the exception of the confrontation between him and Eilistraee. I wanted to see that. I wanted to see both of them more.
I also wanted to see a few more pages of Selvatarm. I don't like that the Drow God of Warriors went down so easiliy, basically without even a fight. One shot from him to her, one shot from her to him, and that was it. It was anti-dramatic.
What upset me about the 'lack' with Vhaeraun was more the tiny role his [i:2xvywxjq]followers[/i:2xvywxjq] played, and mostly the way they were portrayed.** They didn't do much in this book, but much of what they did do was totally not in keeping with Vhaeraun's dogma. Other things they did would be acceptable or expected to see from a lay worshipper, like a recent convert freshly freed from the Spider's Web, but would NEVER be acceptable for his priests to do. I hated how they acted like squabbling spiderkissers, and how they were more mindless-evil-for-the-sake-of-evil rather than cunning-evil-and-the-ends-justify-the-means-evil.
**(On the bright side we at least got to see a decent sized group of them, unlike WotSQ where it seemed like there were only two or three agents of the Masked Lord in existance. He sent a fiendish mercenary to do something THAT important, instead of his own people??!??! argh)
I had spent a few days writing up a review and big in-depth critique of the book after I finished it... was hoping to post it somewhere like amazon.com or just on LJ to warn other realmsfans so they could decide whether to buy the book or not.
I needed an outlet. This will do much better though. Discourse with like-minded roleplayers is better than an angry rant on a review site. I'll pull a few parts out of it, to go more in depth about what my specific problems are with how the priests of Vhaeraun were acting.
[quote="Shir'le E. Illios":2xvywxjq]
[quote="Sancha":2xvywxjq]Moreso though, it bugged me that they just took him out at what is really the start of the civil war/family feud in the drow pantheon[/quote:2xvywxjq]
Part of what I was expecting to see when I heard in advance that Eilistraee killed Vhaeraun in battle in this book was said battle between Eilistraee and Vhaeraun.
[/quote:2xvywxjq]
I wanted to see the battle between them. I felt a bit ripped off that we only learn of it through exposition. I felt they didn't show us nearly enough of the battle between Selvatarm and Vhaeraun in the WotSQ books, but at least we got to see them cross swords for a few rounds.
This book would have been much better and had greater impact if we, the readers, if not Quile and the characters, got to see Vhaeraun confront Eilistraee. Maybe see them do a bit of a sword dance. The end of it could have still been left vague. We still could ahve been left with the impression that she slew him and absorbed his essence and took over his portolio, and still could have gotten the implied subtext of the other possibility that I seem to have missed.... that could have been done, WHILE letting us see them go a few rounds and exchange a few rounds... and would not have left me so disappointed in it. I might have instead been eager to read the next book to find out what actually happened....
[quote="Shir'le E. Illios":2xvywxjq]
The only ‘proof’ we have of his demise is the words of his followers. Now, I believe that [i:2xvywxjq]they[/i:2xvywxjq] believe that he’s dead, but that might simply be because Vhaeraun wishes them to believe so (he is, after all, a deity of deceit and treachery). I simply think that this is Vhaeraun’s way of allying himself with his sister without openly doing so (even Eilistraee seems unaware that now they’re apparently working together) and to do so all he had to do was convince everyone that he’s dead.
[/quote:2xvywxjq]
I really really hope you are right. The way you put that, yes, that is the kind of thing I could see Vhaeraun doing...
I've always felt that if he got to the point where he was ready to unite the drow powers against Lolth, or actually admitted that he needed his sister's help for something, that he might very well try to trick her into giving it. That serves a twofold purpose -- first, and conciously, it is one way to get around any resistance or reluctance she might have to say yes. Secondly, and subconciously, it will appese Vhaeraun's pride and hurt feelings to know that his sister is helping him, but she doesn't WANT to and he didn't have to BEG her for help.
While it is not normally his style to sacrifice followers needlessly (They say he actually cares about them like his sister does hers, and is more involved personally with his worshippers than any drow deity), I could see him sacrifcing a few priests if he absolutely needed to ensure that NOBODY could let his plan slip. If his priests didn't KNOW that was what he was really doing, then their souls could not be questioned. Nor could any spy involved in the high magic ritual read their minds and learn of the real plan. That makes sense, and he'd do it if he had to. The priests will end up in Elleniath, and he can explain and apologise to them later. And perhaps raise them and send them back to work later if they take it graciously....
[quote="Shir'le E. Illios":2xvywxjq]
Then again, if they kill Eilistraee I think I’ll probably leave the Forgotten Realms forever.
Love -x-x-x-
Shir'le[/quote:2xvywxjq]
I won't leave the Realms forever, even if they do kill my favourite god permanently. Even if they kill Eilistraee, which would also piss me off.
I'll just house rule it and say it didn't happen when I'm DMing drow campaigns, or give the PCs a chance to stop it from occuring or something. I'll likely stop buying new books from WotC, but I won't leave the Realms itself. I love them too much. I've been playing surface drow now for almost 15 years. I'm not gonig to stop anytime soon.
Have just read about
Answered Prayers, which revisits Liriel and her friends Thorn and Sharlarra several years after the events of Windwalker...
On Elaine Cunninghams' home page. It's in "The Best of the Realms vol3". Didn't know where to put, so I've desided to do it here. Didn't want to make a new topic out of it. Can't wait to read it. Hope it's better then the Windwalker ending... Has anyone read it already?
Answered Prayers, which revisits Liriel and her friends Thorn and Sharlarra several years after the events of Windwalker...
On Elaine Cunninghams' home page. It's in "The Best of the Realms vol3". Didn't know where to put, so I've desided to do it here. Didn't want to make a new topic out of it. Can't wait to read it. Hope it's better then the Windwalker ending... Has anyone read it already?
-
Narsia Ny'Dhun
- Resident
- Posts: 450
- Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 3:51 pm
- Contact:
[quote="Shir'le E. Illios":1m9t7ww9]
Finally I can’t help but think on Paul S. Kemp’s words regarding the Lady Penitent; how that essence of good that Lolth left alive inside her to punish her might in the end become her undoing (I tried looking for the exact quote but didn’t find it). And it seems to me that the battle will ultimately be decided by Hallistra.[/quote:1m9t7ww9]
Well, I'd imagine that if the names of these series of books really do have anything to do with what they're about I think it's a safe bet to imagine that Hallistra will have a big say in how it ends, opening up a large possiblity for redemption.
Though I can't help thinking myself that Wizards seems to have a fondness for letting the badguy win...so it wouldn't surprise me if they were trying to screw over the goodly drow just for the sake of making Lloth more powerful. Apparently evil sells a lot better than good, and they gotta keep churning out those books to line their pockets with more money.
Forgive me for sounding cynical, it's not proper of an Eilistraeen, but Wizards hasn't given me much reason to have faith in them so far...
I'm starting to get high hopes again, but I'm trying to keep them in check because Hallistra has already let me down once. Softens the impulse to hit something if you're not bouncing off the walls hoping for the outcome you want.
And with that, I'll part with a look at the subject from an objective standpoint.
Say Wizards takes the neutral approach to the conflict, coming out with an ending that would please the lovers of both good and evil drow. It's hard to believe that'd happen with two of the gods of the pantheon already dead (not sure if gods CAN be ressurected like people so I can't comment about the possibility of them coming back) but it could happen. We just have to sit back and wait.
And, of course, pray to the goddess and give her strength.
Finally I can’t help but think on Paul S. Kemp’s words regarding the Lady Penitent; how that essence of good that Lolth left alive inside her to punish her might in the end become her undoing (I tried looking for the exact quote but didn’t find it). And it seems to me that the battle will ultimately be decided by Hallistra.[/quote:1m9t7ww9]
Well, I'd imagine that if the names of these series of books really do have anything to do with what they're about I think it's a safe bet to imagine that Hallistra will have a big say in how it ends, opening up a large possiblity for redemption.
Though I can't help thinking myself that Wizards seems to have a fondness for letting the badguy win...so it wouldn't surprise me if they were trying to screw over the goodly drow just for the sake of making Lloth more powerful. Apparently evil sells a lot better than good, and they gotta keep churning out those books to line their pockets with more money.
Forgive me for sounding cynical, it's not proper of an Eilistraeen, but Wizards hasn't given me much reason to have faith in them so far...
I'm starting to get high hopes again, but I'm trying to keep them in check because Hallistra has already let me down once. Softens the impulse to hit something if you're not bouncing off the walls hoping for the outcome you want.
And with that, I'll part with a look at the subject from an objective standpoint.
Say Wizards takes the neutral approach to the conflict, coming out with an ending that would please the lovers of both good and evil drow. It's hard to believe that'd happen with two of the gods of the pantheon already dead (not sure if gods CAN be ressurected like people so I can't comment about the possibility of them coming back) but it could happen. We just have to sit back and wait.
And, of course, pray to the goddess and give her strength.
Harl l'drathir udos alure, Eilistraee lu'Anixiel ulu kyorl udossa zuch
As much as I would like him dead, my theory on Vhaerun is similar to Shir'le's: Vhaerun is not actually dead yet. I just don't believe he is. But...then there is the title of the last book "Ascendancy of the Last" which implies some serious bloodletting. What will give some of this away should be the two books coming out soon: Expedition to the Demonweb Pits (does the adventure culminate, like Q1, with a battle against Lolth?) and Drow of the Underdark (whose back-cover text talks about Lolth...hinting that its not going to be Lolth who dies in this series).
At the end of the day I would not be surprised to see only two drow dieties left: Lolth and probably Eilistraee, though Eilistraee's cult will be, by then, much more gender neutral.
Maybe.
But then who knows? WotC could kill off Lolth and, well, happy times for all of you I suppose but that would basically kill the fun of D&D for me. C'est la game, non?
At the end of the day I would not be surprised to see only two drow dieties left: Lolth and probably Eilistraee, though Eilistraee's cult will be, by then, much more gender neutral.
Maybe.
But then who knows? WotC could kill off Lolth and, well, happy times for all of you I suppose but that would basically kill the fun of D&D for me. C'est la game, non?
-
CrankyOzzie
- Regular
- Posts: 278
- Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:15 pm
- Location: NSW, Australia
- Contact:
Oh, that's what I was going to post.
To the person who stated they were unsure if a god could be resurrected or not (I'm too lazy to check who it was, but I think it was Sancha?). Anyway, they can, in a sense. Best example is Mystral/Mystra.
While not strictly a resurrection, Mystral (as she was known) had her umm, essence, I guess you could call it, invested in the mortal Wizard, Midnight, who then ascended to godhood after the time of troubles. But you'd know this already.
There's nothing to say both Selvatarm and Vhaeraun haven't secretly invested some of [i:p6fbajjl]their[/i:p6fbajjl] power in a mortal shell somewhere along the line. In fact, I'd expect this to be the sort of thing a god like Vhaeraun would do as a contingency plan.
Considering how (relatively) popular he is, WoTC would be fools to kill him off altogether. Selvetarm, on the other hand, probably won't be missed by many. He was little more than Lolths lapdog (or should that be, lap[i:p6fbajjl]spider[/i:p6fbajjl]?) anyway, going on what I know about these things which is -- admittedly -- not that much.
To the person who stated they were unsure if a god could be resurrected or not (I'm too lazy to check who it was, but I think it was Sancha?). Anyway, they can, in a sense. Best example is Mystral/Mystra.
While not strictly a resurrection, Mystral (as she was known) had her umm, essence, I guess you could call it, invested in the mortal Wizard, Midnight, who then ascended to godhood after the time of troubles. But you'd know this already.
There's nothing to say both Selvatarm and Vhaeraun haven't secretly invested some of [i:p6fbajjl]their[/i:p6fbajjl] power in a mortal shell somewhere along the line. In fact, I'd expect this to be the sort of thing a god like Vhaeraun would do as a contingency plan.
Considering how (relatively) popular he is, WoTC would be fools to kill him off altogether. Selvetarm, on the other hand, probably won't be missed by many. He was little more than Lolths lapdog (or should that be, lap[i:p6fbajjl]spider[/i:p6fbajjl]?) anyway, going on what I know about these things which is -- admittedly -- not that much.
I quit smoking with Eilistraee! - Courtesy of http://www.sloganizer.net/en/
-
Narsia Ny'Dhun
- Resident
- Posts: 450
- Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 3:51 pm
- Contact:
[quote="Mikayla":1hjk5aap]
But then who knows? WotC could kill off Lolth and, well, happy times for all of you I suppose but that would basically kill the fun of D&D for me. C'est la game, non?[/quote:1hjk5aap]
Now I loathe the creepy spider wench as much as the next Eilistreean, but the problem with the idea of Lloth dying is that in no way would she stay dead because, as we all know and several have pointed out, the evil drow sell better than the good ones. So looking at it from a business view, Wizards would have less of a problem killing off Eilistraee than Lloth because they'd lose less money.
It's a sad truth about the Realms that the fate of us all is determined by penny pinching suits. So yeah...repeating my self again...I can see the Dark Lady dying much sooner than Lloth. I hate to admit it.
But then who knows? WotC could kill off Lolth and, well, happy times for all of you I suppose but that would basically kill the fun of D&D for me. C'est la game, non?[/quote:1hjk5aap]
Now I loathe the creepy spider wench as much as the next Eilistreean, but the problem with the idea of Lloth dying is that in no way would she stay dead because, as we all know and several have pointed out, the evil drow sell better than the good ones. So looking at it from a business view, Wizards would have less of a problem killing off Eilistraee than Lloth because they'd lose less money.
It's a sad truth about the Realms that the fate of us all is determined by penny pinching suits. So yeah...repeating my self again...I can see the Dark Lady dying much sooner than Lloth. I hate to admit it.
Harl l'drathir udos alure, Eilistraee lu'Anixiel ulu kyorl udossa zuch
-
Shir'le E. Illios
- High Priestess
- Posts: 2352
- Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:51 pm
- Location: Eilistraee.com
- Contact:
[quote="Mikayla":3c0254ab]What will give some of this away should be the two books coming out soon: Expedition to the Demonweb Pits (does the adventure culminate, like Q1, with a battle against Lolth?) and Drow of the Underdark (whose back-cover text talks about Lolth...hinting that its not going to be Lolth who dies in this series).[/quote:3c0254ab]
Well, to be fair, as I understand it both of those books are Greyhawk setting books. Don’t forget that Lolth exists in two settings (where the rest of the drow pantheon only exists in one).
One thought I’ve had is that they might kill off the Forgotten Realms Lolth to make her unique to the Greyhawk setting (which would seem to indicate Wizards moving away from the Forgotten Realms setting). Then again Lolth existence in Greyhawk is in flux as well (as technically she’s killed by players at the end of Q1)… not that I’m that up-to-date with Greyhawk anyway.
[quote="Mikayla":3c0254ab]At the end of the day I would not be surprised to see only two drow dieties left: Lolth and probably Eilistraee, though Eilistraee's cult will be, by then, much more gender neutral.[/quote:3c0254ab]
I don’t know. While change in general can be considered good (particularly for chaotic characters, right ) it takes quite a lot of guts to go through with it and I simply don’t see Wizards as having that much guts. I mean, just look at the previous epic, six-book series War of the Spider Queen… at the end of that nothing really changed for players (sure, Lolth got more powerful and her realm is away from the Abyss now… but does that really change anything for players).
So they might take this time to cull some of the less popular drow deities (Selvetarm particularly… not sure how popular Ghaunadaur and Kiaransalee are in the scheme of things), but the main trio is without a doubt Lolth, Eilistraee and Vhaeraun (who also make the most interesting story since they’re very directly related).
Then again… Sacrifice pretty much promised that either Lolth or Eilistraee would die at the end. If they come up with some loophole for that it’d feel just as cheap as Vhaeraun turning out to be alive still (as I suspect he will be).
And as Narsia put it, I find it hard to fathom that they’d kill Lolth (which I’m sure is making them more money than Eilistraee is).
[quote="Mikayla":3c0254ab]But then who knows? WotC could kill off Lolth and, well, happy times for all of you I suppose but that would basically kill the fun of D&D for me. C'est la game, non?[/quote:3c0254ab]
I think we’re basically in the same boat there (be it from a different perspective). If they kill Lolth that’s the end of fun for you (and as a player I’m not sure I’d be that happy about it either). If they kill Eilistraee that’s the end for me (us). And if they don’t kill either then it’d feel cheap. Seems like a lose-lose situation.
Love -x-x-x-
Shir'le
Well, to be fair, as I understand it both of those books are Greyhawk setting books. Don’t forget that Lolth exists in two settings (where the rest of the drow pantheon only exists in one).
One thought I’ve had is that they might kill off the Forgotten Realms Lolth to make her unique to the Greyhawk setting (which would seem to indicate Wizards moving away from the Forgotten Realms setting). Then again Lolth existence in Greyhawk is in flux as well (as technically she’s killed by players at the end of Q1)… not that I’m that up-to-date with Greyhawk anyway.
[quote="Mikayla":3c0254ab]At the end of the day I would not be surprised to see only two drow dieties left: Lolth and probably Eilistraee, though Eilistraee's cult will be, by then, much more gender neutral.[/quote:3c0254ab]
I don’t know. While change in general can be considered good (particularly for chaotic characters, right
) it takes quite a lot of guts to go through with it and I simply don’t see Wizards as having that much guts. I mean, just look at the previous epic, six-book series War of the Spider Queen… at the end of that nothing really changed for players (sure, Lolth got more powerful and her realm is away from the Abyss now… but does that really change anything for players).So they might take this time to cull some of the less popular drow deities (Selvetarm particularly… not sure how popular Ghaunadaur and Kiaransalee are in the scheme of things), but the main trio is without a doubt Lolth, Eilistraee and Vhaeraun (who also make the most interesting story since they’re very directly related).
Then again… Sacrifice pretty much promised that either Lolth or Eilistraee would die at the end. If they come up with some loophole for that it’d feel just as cheap as Vhaeraun turning out to be alive still (as I suspect he will be).
And as Narsia put it, I find it hard to fathom that they’d kill Lolth (which I’m sure is making them more money than Eilistraee is).
[quote="Mikayla":3c0254ab]But then who knows? WotC could kill off Lolth and, well, happy times for all of you I suppose but that would basically kill the fun of D&D for me. C'est la game, non?[/quote:3c0254ab]
I think we’re basically in the same boat there (be it from a different perspective). If they kill Lolth that’s the end of fun for you (and as a player I’m not sure I’d be that happy about it either). If they kill Eilistraee that’s the end for me (us). And if they don’t kill either then it’d feel cheap. Seems like a lose-lose situation.
Love -x-x-x-
Shir'le
-= Shir'le E. Illios =-
Chosen of Eilistraee
A note on Greyhawk and Lolth: After Q1 Lolth's position was "in-flux" as you say in Greyhawk, but since then they have made it clear numerous times that she lives in Greyhawk still - Dragon Magazine 298 details Erelhei-Cinlu (the city from D3) and its now an almost completely Lolthian city, despite the D/Q modules. Charnida, the high priestess of the Fane, still lives, and Eclavdra Eilserv, once a heretic, is now back in the favor of Lolth. More to the point, the generic D&D supplement "Complete Divine" adds Lolth to the list of "Core" D&D gods, putting her definitely in the pantheon available to Greyhawk inhabitants. So, apparently whatever happened to her in Q1, it did not involve total destruction.
AKA Sheyreiza Valakasha, Yathtallar d'Lolth, Princess of the Demonweb Pits, aka Ghenni'salla Tlabbar, aka L'olath'anon, the Dark Flower, aka the Valsharess of ALFA, aka ... well ... you get the picture. 
-
Shir'le E. Illios
- High Priestess
- Posts: 2352
- Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:51 pm
- Location: Eilistraee.com
- Contact:
[quote="Mikayla":10qk86eq]So, apparently whatever happened to her in Q1, it did not involve total destruction.[/quote:10qk86eq]
Either that or they decided that it "hasn't happened [i:10qk86eq]yet[/i:10qk86eq]". I've always thought that they'd taken the stance that they're leaving that bit for the players to play through if the DM so wishes.
Then again, as I said, I don't have much of a clue regarding Greyhawk.
Love -x-x-x-
Shir'le
Either that or they decided that it "hasn't happened [i:10qk86eq]yet[/i:10qk86eq]". I've always thought that they'd taken the stance that they're leaving that bit for the players to play through if the DM so wishes.
Then again, as I said, I don't have much of a clue regarding Greyhawk.
Love -x-x-x-
Shir'le
-= Shir'le E. Illios =-
Chosen of Eilistraee
-
DarkSongKnight
- Maid
- Posts: 63
- Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2006 10:57 pm
- Location: North Carolina, USA
- Contact:
I just finished [i:1q7gg6f3]Sacrifice of the Widow[/i:1q7gg6f3], and I have to say, its very unnerving.
What concerns me the most is the possibility of Eilistraee being "corrupted" by Vhaeraun. I agree with Shir'le on this one; if Eilistraee loses her good side, then the point of being a "redeemed" drow will be gone. Good will still have been lost.
Another scary outcome could be this...Lolth absorbing Eilistraee. Would Lolth be less evil? Maybe even neutral? Considering that she is a greater goddess and Eilistraee a lesser, I'm not sure.
During the battle at the Promenade, it surprised me how easily both Iljrene and Qilue would have been defeated. Ok, so Iljrene was defeated, but I thought Qilue and Iljrene teamed up together would have been enough to blash the judicator to ashes. Oiy, the whim of authors.
I sincerely hope Eilistraee retains her goodness and makes it out ok. Otherwise...
What concerns me the most is the possibility of Eilistraee being "corrupted" by Vhaeraun. I agree with Shir'le on this one; if Eilistraee loses her good side, then the point of being a "redeemed" drow will be gone. Good will still have been lost.
Another scary outcome could be this...Lolth absorbing Eilistraee. Would Lolth be less evil? Maybe even neutral? Considering that she is a greater goddess and Eilistraee a lesser, I'm not sure.
During the battle at the Promenade, it surprised me how easily both Iljrene and Qilue would have been defeated. Ok, so Iljrene was defeated, but I thought Qilue and Iljrene teamed up together would have been enough to blash the judicator to ashes. Oiy, the whim of authors.
I sincerely hope Eilistraee retains her goodness and makes it out ok. Otherwise...