Vhaeraunite Relationships?

Since the Chosen of Eilistraee is a religious oriented player group, naturally there is a place to have theological discussions. That is in-game religions; please leave real-world religion out of it. Debate the fine points of a certain dogma, how a church can enforce worship while staying true to its tenets or simply why one deity is better than another one is. All are free to talk about it here.

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Vhaeraunite Relationships?

Post by Noraimund »

[Shir'le EDIT] This post contains spoilers to Sacrifice of the Widow.


*waves* I realize that I'm new at the forum, but I wanted to ask what the other side thought of the developments of Lisa Smedman's book. I play a great deal of Vhaeraunite characters and was extremely distressed about the (apparent) death of Vhaeraun. My characters took the lead in the act of cross-religion relationships by sending Qilue Veladorn a box full of sixty pounds of smokepowder and forty pounds of roofing nails.

All of the other Vhaeraunite roleplayers I've talked too are thinking out various strategies of how to get simple revenge or genocidal extermination of Eilistraeeans. They are not interested in joining Eilistraee's clergy in any way, shape, or form.

Would anyone be interested in discussing how they feel about the inclusion of Vhaeraunite clergy into the Eilistraeen church, or any reasons why they should join?
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Post by Bhaern Quel »

Well other the the Masked Lord is very likely not dead, there are points of agreement between the two faiths. Yes there are points of disagreement as well.

The blending, should it occur has these points in comon:

Drow are entitled to live on the Surface as a right.
That aid must be given to Drow in distress if not an active foe (though Vhaeraunites are only limited to aiding followers).
Aceptance of the fair elves as alies.
Gender equality, or very near it.

Major points of disagreement appear to revole about aceptible tactics. While followers of both will backstab the Vhaeraunite will backstab anyone and an Eilistraee would only back stab a known evil to serve good.

I am concerned about how Ms. Smedman will handle the concept of both deities, as in her last offer she did not know the Dogma of the Dark Maiden (and apparently niether did the Editors) concerning basic concepts.

Eilistraee hates Evil is of course a major problem with embracing a bunch of folk that appear to reveal in committing Evil acts. Not that I mind burning the vestements of a Priestess of Lolth's clothes, perferible even while she is wearing them *wink*. Followers of the Dark Maiden clearly will burn such a foe as well.

If a blending actually occurs, until Lolth is dimissished I can see an uneasy truce existing between Good and Evil of the two faiths as posible. As i said before some goals and rules are near the same, it is just a matter of acceptible tatics that need to be adjusted.
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Post by Shir'le E. Illios »

There is one overlapping alignment between the two deities: Chaotic Neutral. That alignment could work to facilitate a crossover, if not merger, between the two religions. And there is the possibility (I would say the fear, as it’s one of the last things I want to happen) that Eilistraee will shift alignment to Chaotic Neutral because of taking her brother’s portfolio, which would make it even easier (except on those Neutral Evil ones… and the Neutral Good Eilistraeens).

The other possibility is that, as Bhaern pointed out, he isn’t really dead at all. Or that if he is that he comes back to life. Though again I hope that he stays dead… not because I have something against the deity as a player and I can well understand how painful it would be to have the deity you like most die on you (and wouldn’t want Eilistraee to die either), but death already has little enough meaning as it is. What is the point of a story if the dead just constantly come back to life? I’d almost say that if even death isn’t strong enough to change the world, then what’s the point in trying?

Beyond those two possibilities I’d imagine the Vhaeraunites scattering. Those of Chaotic Neutral alignment could find refuge with Eilistraee (and I can imagine some might even change alignment and outlook to fit… your deity dying out from under you [i:3ba7q3rd]has[/i:3ba7q3rd] to be significant enough to change one’s outlook on life). Others might go back to Lolth or to one of the other evil drow deities… or find another patron deity (I can imagine a lot of them actually going to Mask, but perhaps that’s more out of ignorance towards both deities).

From Eilistraee’s followers’ point of view fairly little has really changed; those willing to convert to the Maiden are welcome, those who aren’t and hold to their evil ways are enemies and need to be stopped. The only difference for them is the upheaval among the drow the whole thing is causing; the increase in potential converts, the potential for wild lashing out of Vhaeraunites seeking vengeance, etc. Turbulent times to be certain, but nothing has changed in principle (yet).


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Post by Noraimund »

(Sorry about the lack of spoiler disclaimer)

You’ve both brought up several points that have a lot of merit, some of which I’ve discussed before.

Is Vhaeraun really dead? Gods have come back before, as have other entities, such as Orcus. I think, personally, that this is one huge setup, though as to what purpose so far, I’m not sure.

A merge between the two faiths is highly unlikely in my opinion. Those not wholly committed may switch sides, and some may drift off, but, I think that most will cleave to their own faction. As you said, Vhaeraunites have very different approaches then Eilistraeens. My characters find it perfectly acceptable to use lies, treachery, violence, murder, rape, and torture to further their aims. Neutral Evil is fairly widespread through Vhaeraun’s followers, which would immediately cause cracks in any melding of the churches.

The most likely thing to occur is either staying with the faith, or a conversion to one of Vhaeraun’s allies, probably Mask or Shar, though the former is more likely.

I’d like to commend Ms. Smedman on her characterization of both deities, though, and of their faiths. My only nitpick would be that masks cover the upper half of the drow’s face, not the lower.
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Post by Aergale »

[quote="Noraimund":1bwr4y9v]
I think, personally, that this is one huge setup [/quote:1bwr4y9v]

Exactly. That`s obvious. There are many, many theories about what happened, but we can be almost sure that the goal is to destroy or, failing that, at least seriously weaken Lolth. The Masked Lord will go to great lenghts to accomplish that.

[quote="Noraimund":1bwr4y9v] A merge between the two faiths is highly unlikely in my opinion. Those not wholly committed may switch sides, and some may drift off, but, I think that most will cleave to their own faction. [/quote:1bwr4y9v]

Again, you are right. Vhaeraunites are VERY proud and will not come crawling to another deity just because things have gotten more difficult. I mean, hello, would a weakling ever become a heretic in drow society, knowing the risk? They are devoted to their cause, and will stay true to it no matter what.

In fact, while some of those, who were considering a change of religions for personal reasons before all the mess started, might do so after all, some of them might be repulsed by what happened and decide that if they leave that would be deserting. As to which faction will be larger - i haven`t a clue.

[quote="Noraimund":1bwr4y9v]I’d like to commend Ms. Smedman on her characterization of both deities, though, and of their faiths. [/quote:1bwr4y9v]

Huh? Are we talking about the same book here? Or the same Vhaeraun? Sorry, i haven`t seen anything interesting in the way V and his boys are portrayed here. Vhaeraun is NOT Lolth just with reversed gender roles. And that`s exactly the impression i got from the book. IMHO, of course. He uses cruel methods to reach his goal without any remorse, yes, but that`s because he believes them to be necessary, not because he enjoys it. And Vhaeraunite characters seemed shallow and boring. Does "evil" alignment make the person two-dimentional like the "bad guy" from a low-quality Hollywood movie? I`m sure you know it doesn`t. Even the biggest bastard might have positive qualities, and even the most kindly ascetic might have faults. To err is human, after all. And a lot depends on one`s perspective.

That`s why i dont like alignments. Good and evil are subjective, not objective.
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Post by Argoth »

Yes but remember making all of the characters more lifelike, not flat, 3D in a way, is an extreme challange for the writter. We are lucky in fact, becouse the drow pantheon, or the drow themselves are an object of most books coming out recently. The race and its pantheon is as lively as non other in FR.
Making all of the characters three-dimentionall would have to make the author write several new chapters about the other characters to show them in a different light. That is simply impossible. Becouse the more detailed the character becomes (this way) forces creation of different situations, separate (and most of all NEW) characters. And should someone feel bad about them, they would also have to be given a life.
The other way of fixing this problem is simply to write about the inside of those characters (... but in heart he was a good fellow, and would have his doubts on several other occasions... -> so what?) I think a book that would really describe all the characters traits, or whatever makes him tic (including history becground), would be a masterpiece from a psychological point of view.
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Post by CrankyOzzie »

What were the roofing nails for? In case they accidently set off the entire package of smokepowder at once and blew the roof off the temple?
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Post by Sancha »

If my DM goes with including the events of the Smedman books, my Vhaeraunites would not convert over to worship another, be it Eilistraee or Mask.

Sancha, perhaps (she was originally going to take Eilistraee as her Patron Deity, but the actions of a few bad-seeds caused her to choose to go into the Family Business and serve Vhaeraun instead), but not the rest of the family, no way. They would carry on leading the church to the fulfillment of Vhaeraun's noble goals, whether he was granting the priests spells or not. We would keep the faith better than most Lolthite clerics did during her Silence, as our faith is not based on a desire for power, so we wouldn't feel a vacuum or need to find that divine power elsewhere. Our faith is based on our firm BELIEF in our god's noble goals and our desire to save our people from slavery to Lolth. It has always been a difficult path, and the loss of Vhaeraun's personal guidance makes it harder, but few of us would abandon it. We'd try to carry on without his support. We'd definitely continue trying to free other drow from the Web, definitely continue inciting rebellions and guerilla warfare and other plots against the faithful of Lolth, continue trying to make peace with the surface elves, and re-build the ancient kingdoms to reclaim our rightful place in the Night Above.

We don't all revel in doing evil. Like Vhaeraun, many of us just are willing to do whatever it takes. And with his goals being such an uphill battle against overwhelming odds, we are willing to use traditional drow tactics, willing to fight the Spiderkissers on their own terms. That's the biggest disconnect between us and the followers of Eilistraee. She doesn't accept that the ends justify the means. Vhaeraun sees it differently, that her ways are too passive and won't work, considering what the opposition is willing to do to stop us from reclaiming our lands in the surface. His anger at his sister for long-ago events aside, it's mostly a disagreement over HOW to achieve the same goals.

Can the churches work together? Certainly. They always could, and followers of both gods co-existed just fine in ancient times, before the elves started the Crown Wars. Will they do so now? I doubt it. The Eilistraeen's have always been reluctant to work with us, and reluctant to pull out all the stops to take the war to the Spiderkissers. They see our methods as evil, and don't want to have [i:d20r8yi5]any[/i:d20r8yi5] part in them, let alone take an active role in such things.

That MAY change though, but only if Eilistraee herself changes, and begins to accept her brother's long-standing stance that in order to free the drow from Lloth, we NEED to play by her rules. There was a tiny hint that could be happening at the end of the book.. but on the other hand, that dark thought of hers MAY have just been a result of the initial absorbtion of his essence, and it may not last long enough for her followers to be influenced into accepting Vhaeraunite methods as necessary in the War on the Spider Queen....
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Post by Sancha »

[quote="Aergale":aiq4032n]
[quote="Noraimund":aiq4032n]I’d like to commend Ms. Smedman on her characterization of both deities, though, and of their faiths. [/quote:aiq4032n]

Huh? Are we talking about the same book here? Or the same Vhaeraun? Sorry, i haven`t seen anything interesting in the way V and his boys are portrayed here. Vhaeraun is NOT Lolth just with reversed gender roles. And that`s exactly the impression i got from the book. IMHO, of course. He uses cruel methods to reach his goal without any remorse, yes, but that`s because he believes them to be necessary, not because he enjoys it. And Vhaeraunite characters seemed shallow and boring. Does "evil" alignment make the person two-dimentional like the "bad guy" from a low-quality Hollywood movie? I`m sure you know it doesn`t. Even the biggest bastard might have positive qualities, and even the most kindly ascetic might have faults. To err is human, after all. And a lot depends on one`s perspective.

That`s why i dont like alignments. Good and evil are subjective, not objective.[/quote:aiq4032n]

No doubt! Well said on all counts.

Personally, I'd like to slap Ms Smedman upside the head with a copy of Drow of the Underdark or Demihuman Deities, or better yet, one of the new 3rd edition hard covers that details Vhaeraun and his faithful....

She didn't READ his dogma or the activities of his church. Her portrayal of them was awful. I had to agree with Jezz. Those weren't priests of Vhaeraun, let alone high ranking Nightshadows with Vhaeraun's favour. They were spiderkissers in disguise. Maybe that's why he used them and happily sacrificed them (if some of the theories about his plans turn out to be correct). Mostly I think it's all just a result of her not researching the subject material properly.

For example, his priests don't need to be wearing their masks to cast divine spells (They don't even need their holy symbol on their person!), so it should not be 'unusual' to see another priest casting a spell without wearing his mask. And as Noraimund pointed out, the mask covers the top part of the face anyway, and does not cover the mouth and chin.... that is MASK's holy symbol that is a full face mask. Vhaeraunites don't wear ninja masks, as Smedman would know if she'd actually READ any canon writeups on Vhaeraun. ;)

I was fine with her portrayal of the other drow gods and faithful, with the notable burning exception of the Drow God of Warriors getting killed without so much as putting up a fight. That was lame. His followers though, seemed pretty well written to me. Oh, how I love to hate them. ;)
Last edited by Sancha on Fri Apr 27, 2007 10:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Sancha »

[quote="Noraimund":249fdbue]

The most likely thing to occur is either staying with the faith, or a conversion to one of Vhaeraun’s allies, probably Mask or Shar, though the former is more likely.
[/quote:249fdbue]

I can see some of the lay worshippers doing that, such as self-serving thieves that worship him only because he's the drow god of thieves. But not the hardcore faithful and actual servants of the Church, who are firmly commited to his Dogma and dreams for the Drow's future. Mask and Shar don't give two hoots about all that.
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Post by Sancha »

[quote="Bhaern Quel":19z342pf]
I am concerned about how Ms. Smedman will handle the concept of both deities, as in her last offer she did not know the Dogma of the Dark Maiden (and apparently niether did the Editors) concerning basic concepts.

If a blending actually occurs, until Lolth is dimissished I can see an uneasy truce existing between Good and Evil of the two faiths as posible. As i said before some goals and rules are near the same, it is just a matter of acceptible tatics that need to be adjusted.[/quote:19z342pf]

At least in this book they got it closer than they usually do... What were your major issues with her handling of the Dark Maiden's dogma?

The reason I love you guys and hang out here at the Chosen of Eilistraee so much is that unlike the WotC writers and edittors, and the vast majority of Dark Maiden players I've had the displeasure of encountering online in NWN *grumble*, you guys actually KNOW [i:19z342pf]and[/i:19z342pf] follow her Dogma. :D

I love you guys. :D
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Post by Bhaern Quel »

[quote="Sancha":1bcdt563][quote="Bhaern Quel":1bcdt563]
I am concerned about how Ms. Smedman will handle the concept of both deities, as in her last offer she did not know the Dogma of the Dark Maiden (and apparently niether did the Editors) concerning basic concepts.

If a blending actually occurs, until Lolth is dimissished I can see an uneasy truce existing between Good and Evil of the two faiths as posible. As i said before some goals and rules are near the same, it is just a matter of acceptible tatics that need to be adjusted.[/quote:1bcdt563]

At least in this book they got it closer than they usually do... What were your major issues with her handling of the Dark Maiden's dogma?

[/quote:1bcdt563]

She ran a High Hunt that killed creatures that came to the grove for healing hours before for their child. So what they were Werewolves, that does not make them evil. She also collected skulls instead of burning the bodies, if it could have been justified killing them in the first place. She was querried on this and she indicated she had not read all the dogma, but her quick fix after being informed of the dogma was to say the Were were in wolf form. *sighs*

The theory being that wolves would be eatible and left for the creatures of the woods, which should of course include wolves. Ms. Smedman at least was advised of her dogma error before it was announced she got the current triolgy so there is some hope that the dogmas of deitoes will be given greater attention.
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Post by Aergale »

[quote="Sancha":2o5i1j0l]
We would keep the faith better than most Lolthite clerics did during her Silence, as our faith is not based on a desire for power, so we wouldn't feel a vacuum or need to find that divine power elsewhere. Our faith is based on our firm BELIEF in our god's noble goals and our desire to save our people from slavery to Lolth...
[/quote:2o5i1j0l]

So true, so true. There is a goal worth fighting and living for, and there is freedom. Why should we abandon that? That`s one of the many things i like about Vhaeraun - he doesn`t want you to fight for him, he wants you to fight for yourself. Those who fight for what they firmly believe in are the best warriors. My primary character feels herself somewhat indebted to the Masked Lord, for opening the door to the Night Above and liberty for those who would listen. Freedom is a debt that can never be repaid. But that is not the reason why she does what she does. No, the real reason is because she wants to. However, that is also why i kind of understand Sancha - she thought about turning to Eilistraee before all this madness started, and if she actually ever decides to convert, it will be her choice, based not on fear or weakness, but on her personal beliefs and desires. However, i, as a DM, would never incorporate events of this scope until i read all three books. And i sincerely hope your DM will be patient as well. Knowing more of the events will help him spice your campaign up. And i seriously doubt Vhaeraun will be still dead by the end of book 3. Unless miss Smedman decides to indulge her dislike of him and forget that the drow deity of thieves simply can`t die in such a ridiculous way. I hope the second book will give us more hints as to the nature of Vhaeraun`s plot.

[quote="Sancha":2o5i1j0l]
Can the churches work together? Certainly...
[/quote:2o5i1j0l]


Hmmm... i dont know. The things you say make a lot of sense to me, but Vhaeraun and Eilistraee have been at odds for so long, and their followers have often fought each other. It is now personal for many, i guess, with all the real and imagined mutual affronts and wounds. It IS possible, but it would take a lot of goodwill and patience from both sides. And a noticeable change from at least Eilistraee. Once, long ago, she "thwarted Vhaeraun`s efforts to bring the Illythiiri under his sway, enabling Lolth and Ghaunadaur to make great inroads among those who
would become the drow" ( (c) Vhaeraun`s entry in Demihuman Deities). Sure, she didn`t intend for her actions to backfire. But she must have known there was such danger. She worked against Vhaeraun even knowing, that might make things only worse. Their followers would have to overcome a lot of prejudices and "bad blood", so to speak, if they are ever to work together.

Regarding the portrayal of vhaeraunites in the book: Oh, i do have several hardcovers that would work just fine ;-) Damn, why such interesting characters have to be portrayed by those who dont like them and dont even care enough to research? Meh.

Have fun :-) Bye
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Post by Sancha »

[quote="Aergale":1mghblis]
However, i, as a DM, would never incorporate events of this scope until i read all three books. And i sincerely hope your DM will be patient as well. Knowing more of the events will help him spice your campaign up.
[/quote:1mghblis]

Oh, no worries there. My DM defintely wouldn't include it until all three books are out. Even then, she may not. If it ignores canon and sense too much, she'll probably not introduce those events.

[quote="Aergale":1mghblis]
And i seriously doubt Vhaeraun will be still dead by the end of book 3. Unless miss Smedman decides to indulge her dislike of him and forget that the drow deity of thieves simply can`t die in such a ridiculous way. I hope the second book will give us more hints as to the nature of Vhaeraun`s plot.
[/quote:1mghblis]

Well, she DID kill Selvatarm off in an even more rediculous way, so I wouldn't put it past her to let personal dislikes ruin her plotting and writing. She forgot that the drow God of Warriors, you know, should have at least put up a bit of a fight? Magic god-slaying sword not-withstanding, shouldn't they have maybe exchanged a few sword swings at least, so the miserable eight-armed freak could go down fighting, as befits both is nature and his portfolio? Bah!

She seemed like a lazy writer at the time I read it. Now I know this to be true. Not surprised she also didn't read Elistraee's whole dogma (I mean, it's an entire PAGE lol) but very disappointed to learn that is indeed the fact.


**************

Us working together with the moonmaidens? I agree with you. It could certainly happen, but I too think it is unlikely to occur, for those same reasons. It would take a great deal of effort on both parties (mostly on the side of the Dark Maiden's Church) to breach those gaps.

But then again, didn't I just see you and Lady Stealthfoot working together in another thread, briefly?

Like their priestess said, small steps can add up. Hmm.

Nah. They'll never admit that the sacrifices we make on their behalf are necessary and worthwhile. :P Unless the Lady herself changes her mind on that front, and decides to be less-subtle than she normally is in getting that accross to her followers.
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Post by Sancha »

[quote="Bhaern Quel":1mhoaxd9][quote="Sancha":1mhoaxd9][quote="Bhaern Quel":1mhoaxd9]
I am concerned about how Ms. Smedman will handle the concept of both deities, as in her last offer she did not know the Dogma of the Dark Maiden (and apparently niether did the Editors) concerning basic concepts.

If a blending actually occurs, until Lolth is dimissished I can see an uneasy truce existing between Good and Evil of the two faiths as posible. As i said before some goals and rules are near the same, it is just a matter of acceptible tatics that need to be adjusted.[/quote:1mhoaxd9]

At least in this book they got it closer than they usually do... What were your major issues with her handling of the Dark Maiden's dogma?

[/quote:1mhoaxd9]

She ran a High Hunt that killed creatures that came to the grove for healing hours before for their child. So what they were Werewolves, that does not make them evil. She also collected skulls instead of burning the bodies, if it could have been justified killing them in the first place. She was querried on this and she indicated she had not read all the dogma, but her quick fix after being informed of the dogma was to say the Were were in wolf form. *sighs*

The theory being that wolves would be eatible and left for the creatures of the woods, which should of course include wolves. Ms. Smedman at least was advised of her dogma error before it was announced she got the current triolgy so there is some hope that the dogmas of deitoes will be given greater attention.[/quote:1mhoaxd9]

*sigh* Priestesses of the Dark Maiden should not see were-wolves as automatically evil, especially considering Eilistraee is good friends with the goddess of good lycanthropes, and is herself a deity of moonlight.

I thought the Dark Maiden's Dogma was to show kindness to all, even in the face of unkindness, and only to 'repay evil' with swift retribution. In other words, don't judge them by their race or whatnot, but on how they ACT-- and break out the swords only if someone else starts trouble or you catch them in the middle of wrong-doing. Were the werewolves even in the process of actually committing an evil act when the High Hunt slaughtered them?
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